DD refusing to consider Oxbridge: are her reasons valid?

[ArtichokeDip]

DD is in year 12 at our local school. She has never related to the studious high achieving crowd at school. They are not the people she finds it easy to be friends with. She is quite a hedonist and enjoys parties, clubs, dancing, long nights out.

At GCSE she got exceptional grades for her school: 5x9, 4x8. Her passio is English Lit and she wants to study that at uni. Her A-level English teacher says she is already consistently working at A star level and that seems to be true for History and for RE too. This week the school asked her to join a new Oxbridge application prep group they are trailing . DD declined.

DD is convinced she won’t make friends at Oxbridge because she believes everyone will be very studious and there will be few people who enjoy nights out like she likes. She says there will be too much study and not enough fun. Are these valid reasons? How much is it worth pushing back and trying to change her mind? She currently only dreams of applying to big Northern city unis with busy night lives: Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle. All great places but is it crazy not to explore Oxbridge applications if you have a chance?

They do at Oxford. They would be kicked out if they didn't show up for tutorials (lectures a different matter). And therein lies a large part of the difference between Oxbridge and elsewhere.

It's interesting what you said about your employer. Are you in the field where graduates are basically trained from scratch in the workplace? Otherwise how the employer is going to understand who's capable to do the job, without any degree to refer to?

I personally view an Oxbridge degree as a sort of certificate "this guy is capable of working really hard and meeting deadlines and he/she doesn't crumble under pressure". Of course there are students at other unis who can do that perfectly, but it's not obvious at first sight and their unis are not pre-testing this for employers like Oxbridge does. It's not even that hard to get into Oxbridge, for some subjects the acceptance rate is ~50% but it's just the work afterwards that makes you.

I loved a night out when I was young and so did all my friends at Oxbridge. Everyone I knew there subscribed to the "work hard play hard" motto. I bet she'd have a great time- but if she doesn't want it, no point in pushing it.

Her life, her decison to take.
Move on

I think 'I went to Oxford for the Bullingdon Club' would sound a whole lot sillier!

I don't think that's an Oxbridge thing anyone ought to be especially proud of.

It has to be her choice; I turned down oxbridge because i just knew I wouldnt cope with the intensity even though everyone said I would. It was the right choice.

I went to Cambridge. I made a group of very good friends from mixed backgrounds that I’m still close to now. We did work hard but we definitely didn’t spend all our evenings quietly studying in the library! We had a (work hard play hard) blast. Some of the colleges focus more on academics than others - I’d encourage her to at least look at the options and not write it off completely as an Oxbridge degree opens a lot of doors once you leave.

What career is she aiming for after uni? That’s something to consider as well. You can’t be a party girl forever.

Honestly I think most people just know if it’s right for them. I got halfway through th application and pulled out as I just realised it wasn’t for me. I got straight A’s at GcSe. Never regretted it.
my child said they are not interested also despite straight 9’s. They feel they aren’t in that level of academics despite the grades. So we said OK and never discussed it again.

Newcastle was shit for decent dancing when i went. Weird city for students.
Glasgow brilliant for dancing and a brilliant uni too.
This was a while ago, but recent visits to both cities suggest not much has changed in these realms.

I agree with all of this. For context (as I said earlier), I have a DC at Cambs and he's having a great time doing a humanities subject. Definitely not overworked and finding plenty of time to have fun.

There's a lot of anti-Oxbridge sentiment in some of these replies, and some are pretty inaccurate. Re GCSES - if pp's daughter's results are exceptional within her school cohort, that's the important thing. If she was coming out of a private school where 11x9s aren't unusual, that wouldn't be so impressive. From my understanding, Oxford place more importance on GCSE results than Cambs - but either way, it's always in context.

Re studying English. Yes it's a very challenging time for the graduate job market. But, like it or not, Oxbridge still carries a big cachet with employers, whether or not league tables - which should always be taken with a big pinch of salt anyway, as they measure on different things - might say that St. Andrew's is 'better' for English or whatever.

Of course, it should ultimately be your dd's decision, and she might indeed not feel it's right for her, or she might apply and not get a place. But I was someone who dismissed Oxbridge outright because I thought I was far too cool and wanted to go clubbing in a city 😂 My parents just said 'fine, your decision'...but now having seen what a great time my own child is having, I wish they'd have at least encouraged me to visit and then decide whether or not to apply.

Good luck to your dd, whatever she chooses to do.

1. Why let her study English or go to uni at all given the costs and lack of work prospects?

no idea how to answer this. She loves English. She reads all night long if I let her. Books alight her mind. What am I meant to do? Tell her computer science is a better choice for a girl whose souls would shrivel up and die in a comp sci class? And I want her to go to uni for the experience which I think she will love. Who knows what the future job market looks like? All we can know is how to seize the opportunities in front of us today, follow our interests and enjoy our lives right now.

Whoever said this to you knows very little about the value of advanced education. And your answer is perfect.

Thing is, English is one of the most competitive courses to get into (well, at Oxford at least, which is the university I know about). But also, a degree in EngLit from Oxford will open doors in ways other universities won't.

But there are some absolutely brilliant departments of English around the country: Durham, Leeds, York, Exeter, UCL, Kings just off the top of my head have colleagues really at the forefront of the subject. And English is one subject where staff research activity fully feeds through to the way and the content of what students are taught.

So wherever she goes, she'll get an excellent education (Leeds would be my tip for a party town - fabulous clubbing to be had there).

DD had 4 x 9s, 3 x 8s, 2 x 7s, 1 x 6 and a D. Not 4 x A* for A levels. She had a great time at Oxford very recently, topped off with a masters. Honestly, some people really don't understand how grades are considered in the context of where they were achieved.

In this world of AI it’s surely impossible to advise re employability. At least English lit gives skills that are harder to replace by machines.

Also have a Dd about to apply for university who is just a natural English lit girl reads all the time very emotionally intelligent great people skills. Not Oxbridge material though did not love maths and science! And also a party girl.

I was in an office with everything from Cambridge grads, RG grads, postgrad degree holders, people with degrees in vocational subjects like dance, people with degrees in academic subjects like law or history, and some without degrees at all. As with most email jobs, having a degree demonstrates you have some of the skills needed for the job but isn't a guarantee that you can actually do it. One of the worst colleagues I had was the US equivalent of public school/Oxbridge (no work ethic or ability to relate to or work with others at all, but was very quick to try and convince everyone they were the smartest in the room), some of the most respected were people who joined in the 80s or 90s with work experience but no higher education. Which is why AI screening is worrying - some of the smartest people don't look smart in a keyword-optimised CV.

I think this will be more the case for employers who want to be inclusive - there's a recognition that even if working class kids can afford to go, many of them end up dropping out or moving to less prestigious unis in areas where it's cheaper to live.

That's interesting, I thought Newcastle's whole thing was nightlife (that and, apparently, really posh students)

I know people who went to Oxford and Cambridge from my sons school (private) they were studious but also liked partying but fitted in, everyone there seemed to come from a similar background/type; my son whilst clever was more about going out partying and would have hated it so went to a large northern uni in a city centre and loved every second, now got a great job in the city. You can talk to guys daughter but don’t force her, she’ll be miserable if it’s not for her.

I know people who went to Oxford and Cambridge from my sons school (private) they were studious but also liked partying but fitted in, everyone there seemed to come from a similar background/type; my son whilst clever was more about going out partying and would have hated it so went to a large northern uni in a city centre and loved every second, now got a great job in the city. You can talk to guys daughter but don’t force her, she’ll be miserable if it’s not for her.

I would leave it to your DD to decide. It is her life. Going to uni in Manchester or similar is never going to be a bad decision.

Agree on Eng/Lit - my boss at an IT company read English at uni, not CompSci 😁
(another one at a different IT company studied Anthropology in the US)

@YouHaveAnArse Hi Arse (if I may 🤣) Yes, but very tacky booze fuelled 'party' nights with wall to wall vomiting, casual sexual assault and shit music (one great club and a handful of lovely pubs aside) For those of us who like proper dancing, we hopped on a coach to Manchester/Sheffield/Glasgow, danced all night and got back on coach home. 70% public school/v wealthy kids was a huge shock to me....got an invitation to a party in a castle!

What do you mean, "couldn't afford it"? Fees are covered by a loan and maintenance loans (and bursaries) are determined by household income. The full maintenance loan is enough to survive on provided you choose an affordable city. A full maintenance loan for a student living away from home outside of London is £10,544. If we take Birmingham as an example of a mid-range cost University city, it's around £1220 a month for a student to live on average, leaving a £4096 shortfall, or £79 a week, which can be covered easily by 8 hours a week of work all year round. Or alternatively the summer is 12 weeks long and a full time temp job could cover the entire amount.

Trebles as well.

PP said: It's already no longer possible to fund being an undergraduate through student loan/part time work alone - the assumption is that your parents will cover the shortfall. Which is extremely limiting for those whose parents can't/won't - especially if they want to go into medicine, law etc.

1. You might apply for med school in Birmingham but be offered Bristol - very common not to get all the schools you put down
2. Students cannot get the full loan if household income precludes it, even if their parents decline to contribute or eg the household income is high because kids live with a mum and stepdad, and stepdad earns more but doesn't want to contribute to non-bio kids past 18

It'll be interesting (and scary) to see all this unfolding...
The 80-90s were very different, not just in terms of job market. And yes, in real life experience trumps education anyway, but graduates don't have much of experience.

Interesting you mentioned dancers. Beatrix Stix-Brunell did go from being a prima (or soloist?) at Royal Ballet to studying a STEM heavy subject at Standord, but she has an investment banker father. I know of someone who went from RBS to Big 4, also helped by their father. Again, it doesn't look like a realistic pathway for working class kids. These are outliers anyway, and I wonder how they would have been viewed by AI. Everything is being more and more algorithmic these days and yes, it is worrying...

Is it possible to survive Oxbridge without work ethic? Someone teaching there confirmed upthread that their students are much more quiet and studious now compared to 15 years ago.

My DS went to Newcastle 😂so I heartily agree!
Huge selling point! 😉