Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

Just jumping in here to comment that this is a very silly system: people writing references for people they don’t really know (even in the best examples) and writing generic comments based on the cv or transcript grades which are already provided. This process just generates workload for already overworked academics - and in the case of OP’s daughter - can have horrible downside.

Even if the PT had written a “good” reference, it wouldn’t have been from his personal experience but based on info given to him by the person he was writing the reference for!

Years (decades!) ago we stopped writing personal references in the private sector and left it to HR to produce a neutral “XY has worked at this organisation from A to B and currently holds the title of C”. This stopped favouritism/personal basis and avoided problems in employment tribunals.

I know this comment doesn’t help the OP, but there seem to be lots of academics posting on here and from the outside this is a quite bizarre system that wastes time (& therefore money) and adds no value whatsoever.

Why is he writing a reference without accessing the information he needs???!

Although from what OP has stated he has commented on what’s needed.
He just hasn’t done so positively.

A reference really isn't worth the paper it's written on but if that's the system then presumably they will be taken into account.

In the workplace, an employer could very well give a decent reference to someone they're looking to get rid of! We still have them in the public sector but I think they're a waste of time!

I would be wanting to know why. I don't think that is unreasonable.

It's factually inaccurate rather than negative.

Surely it’s a negative thing to say someone is young and not qualified for the thing they are applying?

I'm not sure why you're addressing me here.

Not my DD.

Most people follow the procedure. That's literally what it's there for.

Some lesson!!

I'm really surprised that so many people are giving you grief about this!
I think the PT has behaved incredibly badly.
The whole reason people choose others for a reference is because they think they'll give them a good one, to help their application.

It's not a police statement, he's not going to be arrested for lying. If he legitimately had concerns about her appropriateness for the course, then he should have contacted her to discuss, and if wasn't reassured should have told her either he wasn't comfortable providing a reference or told her exactly what he was going to say and why.

It would have been rude and inappropriate enough to just send it off if he had been correct and his opinion was based on evidence, but from what you've said he's got it completely wrong as well, that's appalling. If it had been an HR reference, for example, saying 'I wouldn't recommend hiring her because she doesn't have the qualification necessary' or 'has a high sickness record,' when those things were untrue she'd have recourse to sue him!

But tbh PT in universities are hit and miss. I remember in mine, every single module we were told "make sure you have frequent meetings with your PT" "your PT is there to help you" "your PT should be the first person you ask for a reference," etc. So in my second year I thought 'I'd better actually meet this person, as Ive never heard from them,' so attended their office hours and introduced myself only for them to be utterly confused why I was there if I didn't actually need anything specific. I was taking one of their modules as well so not as if we had nothing to talk about. I absolutely get that they are busy, but if they only expect you to attend if you need help then,
a) stop the mixed messaging from every other aspect of the course and just SAY this,
b) if you don't need help and therefore never meet them, how are they supposed to ever give you a reference?

I would get another referee who will provide a good reference and send that with the application. Beat case scenario his email he's into the ether. Worst case scenario it's linked to your application but balanced by the other reference and if asked you can explain that he doesn't know you very well and provide your other evidence. Sorry this has happened. He should have spoken to you first and explained why he wasn't recommending you.

Absolutely I agree because DD may need another reference further down the line or
perhaps
there is an issue that she’s not currently aware of that needs improving.

No, don't think that whatsoever but over the last three decades I've definitely witnessed a delaying of adulthood for students. I don't think that's great for them.

I worked a variety of crap jobs to get through grad school...it was a good education on how to deal with people who were challenging. The ivory tower stereotype is just that, a stereotype.

BTW, I spent part of COVID teaching students face to face in a seminar room pre vaccine, and am lucky I'm alive.

It's first and foremost factually inaccurate. It's also negative.

Exactly
I think DD needs to ask her PT
perhaps he does truly believe she’s not up to it yet.

Because you responded to me.
Sometimes procedures are not helpful and the collective wisdom is incorrect. That's called critical thinking.

Well said!

I can't quite fathom some posters most days!

I don't see much critical thinking coming from your posts.

I gave my opinion and you addressed me as if I were the OP!

In my world, procedures are important and can't just be ignored.

Bizarre.

I can't quite fathom why mom is getting involved with an application for her daughter, who is presumably an adult? It is a letter of recommendation.

My PT in uni was also useless. He taught an entirely different subject to what I was studying and I think I met him once in 4 years. I didn't ever use him as a reference but there were equally no rules to say that I had to.

Well a reference is largely a subjective assessment particularly when it comes to someone being suitable for what they are applying. So I would say that in the first instance, it is negative because it does not recommend her for the course. Factually inaccurate would be things like getting her grades or dates of attendance wrong.

I would now be going to the head of department and asking for a new reference on the basis you've outlined here - ie it was done carelessly and inaccurately and you're (speaking as your daughter) worried it will prevent you getting a place. Our head of department will always do references if someone else can't for whatever reason. As others have said, I would not write a reference for someone that was negative - if that was the only thing I could write I would decline to do it. If it's a genuine mistake on the tutor's part, well, okay but it needs pointing out.

Can I ask about this point that your daughter has a maximum of 10 minutes with her personal tutor, each term / semester? Have I misread that? Because that seems extraordinary to me. Where I work we are supposed to see our personal tutees a certain number of times, though of course enforcing it is out of the question - but there's never been a maximum. Is this an 'elite' / Russell Group institution?

Oh wise up, of course a mother is going to support her child. Do you think she should just ignore her? Is that the best you can come up with?

Doesn't sound like you know a lot about students at all!!!