Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

Wrong. References are based on your interaction with the person and whether you think they would be right for the position based on what you know of them. Yes this includes grades etc but can also include personality.

Exactly right. It’s so important so she threw him an email? He must get hundreds everyday…..you”re angry because he didn’t drop everything and spend days on the reference important to her. So important she couldn’t even speak to him? Sorry OP this smacks of entitlement.

Maybe she "threw" him an email because that's how the rules say all reference requests must be done? As pointed out strongly above, students aren't able to have any judgement on how to bend or break rules, as only the academics with all the experience can know this, so she just did what the rules say. Of course she also wouldn't know that she would need to try to see her PT as well as do what she was told (not got all this academic knowledge & experience see), and anyway she needed to give the PT 5 week's notice and there were no more "slots" available for her within that time. Apart from the booking system that said no spaces available, the only way that I can see for her to ask for an extra talk would be to throw him another email!

Can another teacher write it that knows her better if her PT only sees her 10 mins a term.

Let’s not forget there is a massive power imbalance between tutor and student. Many PTs are very unapproachable and if they say you can only have 10mins then as an inexperienced young person you will probably accept that is the case.

Just look at how dismissive (and big-headed) the academics on here have been towards anyone deemed just a lay person. And heaven forbid anyone mentions they are paying fees for this pomposity. Now imagine approaching them when you are a shy 19-year-old.

Exactly. This certainly has been very revealing about some academics' attitudes. All credit to those who go above and beyond of course.

I was wondering about what someone said a while back about it being important to get to know your PT. I wonder if students are told that their PT is someone to be their point of contact "if they have a problem" so they dont realise about needing them for a reference later on.

It actually underlines the importance to a student to have their parents in their corner to advise and support them in navigating these situations, instead of berating them for being over-involved!!

They don't yet have the skillset to handle it when they encounter someone who's arrogant, condescending and dismissive.

Yes exactly. When I was a lecturer, I also mentored working class students. The amount of academics who acted in bad faith towards the disabled and working class students (and to be honest any students they felt jealous of too) really upset me, most of these kids (and they were kids really, zero life experience yet) didn’t have parents who understood how to navigate the politics of university life and how to advocate for themselves.

That's dreadful. Total lack of empathy. I think some of them need to remember that pastoral care is a large element of the role. Just some people really aren't cut out for it.

Tutors probably have little idea about any experience or qualifications your DD has out of school. It would have been sensible for her to have photocopied her qualifications and emailed them to the tutor with a letter asking for a reference. She could of course ask the person who taught her the qualification to give her a reference.

@LoneAndLoco I know you posted on this thread a while back but I just wanted to say how much I agree with you. Lecturers on here can be very high handed and HE board seems to be just for them putting the rest of us right. (There are notable pleasant exceptions). The rest of us who do not write like them and don't cite evidence like them, but nonetheless have valid thoughts. are seen as beneath contempt. Definitely cannot have any alternative points or ideas. One does feel that if a student had to navigate them it would be very hard.

As someone who has for over 20 years worked in a PA role to personal tutors of various ages and academic backgrounds in Oxbridge, I would say that in all circumstances it's never ideal to simply provide links to information. I would always recommend discussing what's needed in person, and taking time to show how enthusiastic you are about whatever you're needing the reference for. I've drafted numerous references for the tutors over the years, and your heart just sinks when you have to go and search out the information yourself, rather than having what is really relevant sent to you. It's not a question of a student drafting their reference, more about providing the pertinent information to take the leg-work out of going and finding it for yourself. A personal meeting would give the opportunity to gauge how much your tutor understands you and to find out more about what you wish to do. Definitely, since Covid, students generally don't like meeting in person. Yes, it can be difficult to track down an academic to speak to them in person, but not impossible, and a high flyer like your daughter no doubt has the where-with-all to do that.

Sorry I know this thread is old now but only just read it. Firstly was wondering if your Dd got a place?

secondly the issue of academics not having enough time to do tutorials, etc is a big one and getting worse. Not necessarily his fault. As an academic I’m allocated one hour per student per year. So technically anything above that is in my own time and what causes me to work even, etc. I’m also told each student has to have 3x personal tutorials a year. I do a group personal tutorial at the start of the year and then only do 2 actual 1-1 personal tutorials during the year but these are allocated 30 mins each. So each student has already had over their allowed hour and that’s before any emails, ad hoc contact, etc.

universities are on a knife edge financially and cutting back drastically. Ultimately they know that the majority of academics are going to continue to support students and not turn someone away because they’ve had their hour!

Still no excuse for a rubbish reference though as a good one doesn’t take any longer to right. Did your Dd ever ask him about it?

Op! I was one of the early posters

How did all this pan out for your daughter?

Well maybe it's a lesson learned to sometimes be a bit more creative and not slavishly always follow procedure to the letter.
Take the initiative and approach someone she has more contact with who marks her work and is more likely to be interested or at least remember who she is.
Is and ought are often like parallel lines. Close by but not crossing.
She will have to be more adaptable and learn to cope with the world as it is.
You seem to be encouraging her to feel aggrieved rather than trying to progress in the matter.
The tutor is only human.
Maybe he got it wrong. Maybe not. She needs to move on.

I would like to hear how this resolved as well. I am hoping your DD @AnonymousStudentParent was able to secure a place on the summer programme and also resolve the issue with the bad ref from the tutor.

I know this is different, but I have a DS in an American High School (we are Brits) who applied this year to university via UCAS. His teacher agreed to write a reference and actually asked for information about what it needed to include. So I gave him the breakdown from UCAS about the different elements of the letter and he ignored it entirely. He wrote a long reference which was obviously 75% standard template and 25% specific to my son. Ultimately it didn't matter because my DS got offers in quickly from his preferred places, but it struck me as weirdly disconnected from the conversations we had (me / teacher) about it all.

I think as others have stated, a lot of it is to do with just time management and pressure on the PTs.

Update.

My DD did not get a place on the summer school. She made enquiries as to why and the poor reference was the issue. She was encouraged to reapply to the summer school for 2026.

I am sorry, thats shite
Your poor DD
Lets hope she has better luck (and no arsehole tutor) next year

Thank you.

She's currently trying to get another piece of paper out of her university for a summer internship she interviewed for and has secured and this is also proving fantastically difficult and bureaucratic. I'm not quite sure what to do to help her.

Have you or she spoken to the careers advice service? Put bluntly, they may have targets around graduate opportunities, placements and outcomes. Academics won't, in some places.

I can absolutely see this happening to an unlucky student with a careless tutor and I'd reiterate that your daughter did nothing wrong here. I would advise her to bring the problem to the careers service - not as a complaint but as an obstacle. Can they advise her on how to deal with references for the future, and can they liaise with her dept if necessary? Best of luck.

Thank you. I will suggest to her that she raises the issue with the careers service if she hasn't heard back about her paperwork by Monday. It does seem to me that the university is engaging in self-sabotaging tactics! Surely they should want to support students who identify great opportunities for summer school, internships etc? I get that they have to have systems but those systems need to work in the interests of students and the university.

I haven't rtft, but I recall I thought this was very unfair. I hope she isn't too devastated, but I know that with you in her camp she will be OK.

Thank you. She was pretty upset! Fortunately she had also applied for other things and, fortuitously, one of those materialised within 24 hours of her rejection from the summer school. Though whether her university can deliver the paperwork remains to be seen.

I know you weren’t happy with the reference and think the tutor was “sabotaging” your daughter

but basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her. sounds to me like he believed this to be the case, was asked to provide a reference, and did that. He delivered a reference for your daughter. Unfortunately, it wasn’t a glowing one. So you can be annoyed but you can’t blame him. Perhaps he was even toning down his real thoughts OP and this was actually as positive as he could honestly make it