Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

We keep hearing the phrase "academic expertise" as being so important, but not only have we agreed above that not all academics are equal in their expertise and diligence, we have also had a number of academics commenting here that the processes outlined by the OP are the same or very similar in their organisations.

In fact I think the numbers seem to be roughly equal between those who think the processes and rules are normal and those who think they are very unusual - the only difference has been in the number of posts and vehemance of the latter.

I also find it interesting that on one had the OP is being told that her DD did things wrong by not bypassing the rules as they were given to her, yet on the other hand we are being told that nobody can possibly understand the academic world unless they have that experience from the inside.

So which is it - either we can't understand without your incredible knowledge and experience, or we should automatically realise that we can break the rules?

I thought you were getting off the thread

Huh, and this same person who doesn't want to interact with me, is now giving laughing emojis to my post. That's Ok, I'll report them.

Except you’re not really (not saying you couldn’t have done), but your posts have been too subjective and lacking in balance to be truly helpful.

That surely happens sometimes.

Oh, good morning. Yes, I am providing academic expertise and experiene that you lack because you don't have the qualifications...you are not an academic. Other academics also gave advice. Loads of parents weighed in with what they thought. So there's the balance.

Please define 'subjective'. Evidence your argument.

I’ve asked MN to look at this poster but honestly I am beginning to think they like disruptive posters. The friction increases posting and eyeballs which of course is only good for their company.

I’ll ask again, As you can see three MN admins are on here. BeAzure has repeatedly argued against multiple people including myself. She’s said openly that all British people are passive aggressive and seems to base this premise off one book she has read and then has repeatedly argued with everyone who comes on this thread. @ClaraMumsnet @HopeMumsnet @LilyMumsnet

The whole experience has made me question why on earth I am spending so much of time on MN if the quality of the experience is to be so unpleasant. The OP’s thread has been completely hijacked and she can’t say anything any more on her own thread. Why won’t you get involved MNHQ?

Yes, even so! That would be the young person trying to be independent. It wouldn’t mean the parent wasn’t concerned.

In fact the whole notion that once someone is 18 their family should somehow shrug them off as if they do not give a damn is just ludicrous. We will always be family - we are a society. Most people remain concerned about their children and ditto their parents until the day they die. These days we are even more enmeshed as parents pay for education or living costs to study and later may be involved in childcare for grandchildren.

I must say there is a very unpleasant bullying tone from the academics on this thread. Working at a university doesn’t make you the only person with a brain or a valid opinion.

Well, some of your posts directed at me were removed.

The book I read was a bestseller and used as a university textbook, and I referred you to another work of history (I think Cambridge University Press) that details why passive aggression became endemic to British Culture. There are bibliographies in those books to support the main assertion. You can cross reference.

You don’t need to be quoting books to have a valid argument about whether it’s wrong to give a damaging reference.

Academics are not the only people with thoughts and life experience. This is why, for example, we have trial by jury.

Maybe going to university is like buying a car, and you don't read the warranty or take it in for checks, and then wonder why things go wrong

I don't think anyone stated that contact must cease between parents and children should be shrugged off when they are 18. But they are adults at that phase, and that changes the dynamic.

The reference again to tone here is interesting. It seems to be Ok to insult people as long as the "correct tone" is used. Or maybe, laughing emojis.

I never said that academics were the only people with thoughts and life experience. That is another misrepresentation. My claim is that in academic matters, and yes, even academic reference and their nature, how one gets one and the best outcomes, academics are well placed to give advice.

I am often surprised at the lack of interest (to expect thanks would be far too much!) by parents in this section of MN when experienced & expert academics post. We are giving you insights into how universities work from the inside. It's very useful information, but apparently not as valuable as having a DC go through university or one's own university experience of a decade or more ago ...

How do we know they are experienced and expert given this is an anonymous chat forum?

I think you can tell by the detailed knowledge of processes & procedures that we offer.

And I suppose that I tend to take people at their own estimation, until evidence emerges to judge otherwise. I know, I'm a naïve trusting fool. But I find it's a pleasanter way to go through life.

Could be bull shit!

It is a fair enough point. But if someone is describing to you in some detail how it works, knows the literature...in my case, I've been providing a number of links to Times Higher, WONKE, subject conference about personal tutoring, details about the types of institutions I taught it, the probability is they are experienced and expert. I've always thought though there would be more productive conversations if people had to put their real names in advice fora.

But I find it's a pleasanter way to go through life.

Sure… in real life
mumsnet? But so much

There’s a little book called Mein Kampf you may have heard of that denigrated a race of people with devastating effects.

Id be wary of tarring a whole nation through just reading one book and believing everything in it.

This surprises me too. But well, it might be because students are customers now, and they are "paying" for a degree, and so what we teach them is perceived as irrelevant, I don't know.

The book Observing the English was written by a cultural anthropogist doing an ethnographic study. The other one concerning the historical source of passive aggression in English culture was by a historian. I don't think that that's really equivalent to Hitler.

Are you saying that there are no cultural characteristics of different countries and that they or their history should not be studied?

But you stated you are retired @BeAzureAnt and therefore you are out of date. And no more qualified to give any “expertise” than a retired pharmacist is qualified to dispense a prescription. Besides which, this is a consumer issue and the student is a consumer!

In your academic career have you never encountered the notion of other people having different opinions?

Sure, but academics spend their careers helping people. They do. They teach and they create knowledge, sometimes out of personal interest, sometimes it does real good.

And I will take questions at face value, until shown otherwise. I will also though call out people on insults or misrepresentation. I even ask questions to clarify what they are getting at.

Yep, they are paying. They have rights!