Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

Probably more so, tbh, especially if they or their DC have had a similar experience. They don't have the vested interest in defending the profession. All professions have their bad apples. My own certainly does. It is entirely unnecessary to be defensive anyway because nobody has suggested that all PTs are unsupportive. Some posters have shared how some PTs have gone above and beyond, which is as it should be. All young students deserve the support they need.

None of my three young adults have had that level of support from (thus far) 5 different unis between them. Plus my uni x2 (although my MSc PT was outstanding!) and DH's.

But if you didn’t know much about how universities worked, other than an outside perspective, why would you think you’d be as qualified to make assertions as an academic trained in the field who works in a university?

Students are the customers of universities. They provide a revenue stream and so they are entitled to have a say if they think the uni is inadequate or an academic has made a mistake. They may not pay as much as you would like but it’s still a considerable sum.

These days a lot of parents are making a big investment in their child’s university education - mostly financially but also in terms of personal support. We are the customers too!

I’m not commenting on an area of academic specialty. I’m commenting on whether an inaccurate and highly subjective reference should be given which harms a student’s chances. I’d say that was slapdash.

I’m not sure if it is about a vested interest, really. And the idea that academics and universities have to defend themselves any more than other professions doesn’t seem to be the case. All professions have their vested interests.

It’s ridiculous to say you cannot comment on how academics operate unless you know as much as the academics working in them. People have a right to complain if something seems wrong. You don’t need a degree to do that.

For example if you were a patient who went for an operation and the doctor removed the wrong leg you wouldn’t need to be a doctor to complain about that!!

It was a big mistake for the government to have universities defined as businesses and education conceived purely as a vocational commodity. It has done pernicious harm to the sector.

That said, the contract is between the university and the student.

Oh you can complain, surely. That’s what the Office for Students is for. But I think that if academics are explaining to you how things work, it might be good to listen. I think they may have some knowledge that could be helpful.

Medical malpractice cases bring in expert witnesses and you know what, they are for the most part, doctors.

That's actually a really good point. Universities are providing a service to their customers, just the same as retailers, the public sector, the NHS...

Teaching used to be a profession that never expected to be questioned. They were always right no matter what! I think even they have realised now that they are providing a service, and it can be challenged if they are not doing this well.

One might ask the same of you.

As I said, it was a pernicious mistake to have students classified as customers. It you look at some research by WONKE, it suggests that students who identify more strongly as consumers have poorer academic outcomes than those who don’t as much.

Student “consumers” are more likely to have goals that are related to their performance, e.g., passing a test, than goals related to developing their understanding, and so they adopt more passive learning strategies, such as rote memorisation.

The problem is that this interferes with a more holistic view of what education is for.

Offering academic expertise.

Which isn't necessary.

It was parent/student experiences that were more pertinent to the OP.

That’s what you think you’re offering.

It's a world now where everyone is a "business" with customers and stakeholders. I'm often a little bit agog that childminders consider themselves to be a business. I work in the public sector and we are constantly told that we are a business and inside I am going, "fuck that, we're a SERVICE not a business"!!

It's just the way of the world. Maybe one day the pendulum will swing back.

Academic expertise! You really do have a vested interest.

People paying for a product for the next 40 years of their life do have a right to be considered customers.

Yes the student has a contract with the university and I as a parent have had several contacts with university halls of residence as a guarantor. I’m sure you’d say it’s only accommodation but the uni wouldn’t function without providing this particular service to students.

In the end I have been paying for my children to study so they can have qualifications to earn a living, which is what we in the real world have to do!

I said I am offering academic expertise, yes. I’ve never hidden the fact I am an academic from anyone here. I am saying that I have, and other academics here have spent some time explaining what might have happened based on their knowledge of university administration and dealing with students. I’m not sure how providing a free service on here explaining these things makes me have a vested interest. Heck, I retired a couple months ago from the university…I have zero monetary/vested interest in any of this.

You are correct accommodation is a different matter. But the contract is with the university and the student.

I had student loans in the States…around £60K in the 90s. I paid them back. My parents didn’t help, and I wouldn’t have expected them to whatsoever. It took me about 20 years of overpayment to pay them off. And in the States, your income level doesn’t matter…you still have to pay them. You cannot discharge them via bankruptcy. The student loan system here is quite gentle compared to that really. That said, I was happy to pay those loans for my education.

I wish there didn’t have to be student loans. It would be nice in the UK if education were seen as a larger social good and funded properly, but it isn’t.

It is exactly what I am offering. If you aren’t an academic, what is your point of comparison?

I’m not sure what you think you are offering, really, but it must be enjoyable to you.

Huh, this person who says he or she doesn’t want to talk to me keeps quoting me.. It is so odd.

The point of comparison is what would be reasonable for anyone else from any other field to write in a reference for someone. A reference should be accurate. From all the OP has said this was not accurate.

Employers are comparable in this situation and these days employers have to be incredibly careful about what they put in a reference. But apparently you are saying with that academics do not have to have the same scruples!

I don’t like the implication from @BeAzureAnt that universities should be exempt from criticism from anyone other than an academic. That’s how cover-ups happen.

I never said that universities should be exempt from criticism, nor did I imply it. That’s just simply a misrepresentation. I mentioned the Office for Students upthread, student representatives that students who wanted to make complaints to could contact, further appointments with the PT to fix the problem. Other academics also mentioned these things.

As to cover ups, well above you were speculating I was the PT in question. You are very free to make these speculations, but to what extent are they credible?

Well are you the PT in question @BeAzureAnt ? Because you do seem awfully invested in this.

This is so funny.

You know, I might be the DD of the thread?

I suspect @BeAzureAnt in the conservatory with the lead piping.

I’d say more Professor Plum.

I would say parents of adult children who have been to uni are as qualified to comment as any academic.

Even if, let’s say, they go away to university and they don’t ever respond to messages for the entire time they’re there? 😆 @LoneAndLoco