Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

Damn. I like being dramatic. Anyway, to be semi-clear, I think a little gentle obfuscation is advisable on these threads, especially when talking about someone else. I personally am not making any complaints to any university. The student experiences I have mentioned are genuine. My son is a real person whose grounds for complaint are not the rigidity of university administration or even his PT, though they didn’t help.

I like being dramatic 😆

All the things you described upthread I don’t recognise, but if they are happening, I can say are infinitely fixable. For example. There are admins for VLEs like blackboard who can sort the wrong version of an essay; if the student told me what happened, I emailed the admin and it was sort out. Easy peasy. Most universities have student reps in programmes if students are not comfortable seeing a PT, etc, and the reps come to faculty meetings and relay concerns. Maybe your son should try that.

As far as gentle obfuscation, being direct = clearer communication. But of course, it depends what your purpose is in commenting.

Totally agree they should be fixable.
My son has already graduated.
My purpose in commenting was to support the OP, who seemed to be getting quite a bashing.

If some people and their kids see the only purpose of university education is for their kid’s social enjoyment and for them to make more money, then absolutely have them go straight into employment. They can earn their money and they can party after work.

Price Waterhouse has competitive schemes for school leavers.
They can become highly paid auto mechanics. They can start a small business. Not everyone has academic proclivities. That’s totally fine.

But please don’t encourage them to go to university if all they want to do is party and they don’t really care if they learn anything and only want a diploma as a meal ticket. It wastes everyone’s time.

They are fixable. It depends to some degree if the student is bothered enough to fix them. Education and solving problems is a two-way street.

So, if your son has graduated, what is the problem?

You said upthread, you are past caring about the details of the OP’s particular situation.

This has been quite a long thread, with a number of different side-tracks. A person can lose interest over the course of a thread.

I originally posted in support of the OP by sharing my son’s experience as I didn’t like the way that some posters (whose names I didn’t register) claimed that the OP was ‘over-invested’ in her own daughter and that the OP’s daughter was somehow at fault for following the rules of her university, being too ambitious in applying for a summer school for which she was unqualified, not getting to know her PT better, not getting to know other lecturers better, sending emails just before Christmas (even though the recipient could perfectly well have ignored them), and being upset at receiving a bad reference.

I was not asking for advice on my son’s behalf. I regretted sharing as much about him as I did, because some posters (not, I think, you) started interrogating me about how I knew abut my own son’s experiences and what I intended doing about them.

I’m well aware of the problems of the HE sector in the UK and how universities ‘work’ in general. I blame only successive governments and universities’ leaders and administrations.

I don’t doubt that many teaching academics do their very best for students, but I know that there are plenty who do not. At any rate, there are far too many posters on this thread who are unreasonably defensive about a situation that absolutely exists but which they are not personally responsible for — and no one has said they are.

It’s been a wild ride, but I’m getting off now.

Ok. But perhaps think a little bit about how when academics are telling you how it is, they mean it. Academics can take rightfully take umbrage when told their expertise and experience don’t matter, or that they don’t really understand their own profession and how administration in universities work, or they are being defensive—no, they are telling you how it is. It depends if you want to listen or not.

This thread isn’t about you though. Maybe think a bit about that.

It is about academics and university life. So, please tell me all about your qualifications to discuss university life, teaching and personal tutoring.

No, it’s about the OP’s DD, for whom she was asking for advice. I don’t need qualifications to post.

Yes, advice about an academic matter.

No, you don’t need qualifications to post or really have any knowledge at all, That’s true.

But I guess if I needed advice about an academic matter, I might talk to an academic. I seem to recall you were giving me an armchair diagnosis of burnout from what I posted upthread? Are you a psychologist, or do you not need any qualifications to post about that either?

I’ve been to university, kids at university, it’s not rocket science.

Various posters have wondered what’s going on with you, but ultimately the thread is about OP’s DD.

@Mirabai - of course you don't need qualifications to post! That's the beauty of this site. Anyone can post about anything. Anyone can post claiming to have expertise they do not have. You don't know if a poster is truthful or knowledgeable or genuine. You don't know whether the OP is truthful or leaving out salient facts (not at all saying this about the OP in this case at all, and she has interacted calmly, patiently and with dignity throughout!) You make your own assessment based on your own life experience and personal circumstances, and you have to take the OP on face value because you are not getting any other 'sides' of the issue!

I think the OP tried valiantly (and MN!) to keep things on track, but I am guessing that she has now given up. As I said before, @AnonymousStudentParent I really wish your DD all the very best, and I believe most people know their own children.

I think with this thread there's been a certain tone, which at times has been fairly unpleasant.

Ok. I guess if you are not an academic, you might think it is easy to teach university. Things look easy when you don’t have to do them.

But you are not an academic, are you? Nor are you a psychologist. And yet you make pronouncements about these issues. You are free to make as many comments as you like about the matter, but to what extent they should be taken seriously or relevant is another issue.

Jam satis.

It must be a lot of fun to refer to posters in an underhanded way, tell them they are not to talk to them, and then mock them by the sidelines. And then of course to complain about tone.

And there you go again.

I will not be getting into it with you.

Just incredible how long this thread has gone on for. Mostly down to someone who is clearly an academic being extremely defensive. I wonder, are they the PT in question??!

Huh, I had someone say they didn’t want to talk to me, and did not want to get into it with me, and yet they are doing so. That’s really odd.

You are surely entitled to speculation. Whether it is credible or not is another matter.

OP’s had some good advice, so she’s probably got what she came for, and has had enough of the rest of it.

So, why are you on here?

I would say parents of adult children who have been to uni are as qualified to comment as any academic.

I sympathise with the OP and her DD. In my experience universities offer very minimal pastoral support. It’s easy for students to slip through the cracks.

In this case the student was proactively applying for something and then asked for a reference too. Well done to her. It’s a shame she was then so let down by the PT’s poor reference.

Ok. So I am the parent of a doctor, and thus I am qualified to comment on medical issues as any doctor. Is that your logic?

No, you would be qualified to comment on being the parent of a doctor! If you found that your doctor child had been given a damaging and unjustified reference you would be qualified to go on MumsNet and see what other parents thought about it!