Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

I have no agenda here. I’m providing information based on professional expertise. But I also am not going to be attacked or treated badly. Upthread the mods mentioned personal attacks here will lead to possible account suspension.

I sometimes think that those of us who are academics and post in this HE forum on MN are letting ourselves in for a certain kind of self-harm @BeAzureAnt We are trying to explain how HE works from the inside, in a realistic and helpful way - but many parents do not wish to hear that we are human, we are very expert, we are different ...

And that is what you decided to bless the thread with! 😆

Maybe so. I get it that parents want academics to teach their offspring well, and with the cost of living crisis and difficulties/anxieties with their kids getting employment, there is extra stress thrown into the mix. The transformation of universities into businesses and HE perceived mostly as a commodity for employability has a lot to answer for.

I do know on the good (and less important) side that Mumsnet is now looking into the laugh emoji…apparently I was far from the only person saying it was being used to bully.

Not at all. I just am not going to put up with being belittled. The past traumas comment is out of line and patronising.

RE: emojis…it isn’t amusing, it is being used to mock. There is a thread about this very issue. A mod said Mumsnet is looking at the rules around laugh emojis, and there are many calls to get rid of them. I am far from the only one concerned about this.

Thank you.

I don't think I've seen anyone belittling you particularly, , though some have taken offence at your assertions that as you have not encountered a similar situation as the one OP's daughter is in (e.g. the rules her Uni has in place) then it MUST be that either the OP is very mistaken or her daughter is lying to her mother. And that it must have somehow be the daughter at fault.

I genuinely feel that there must be something that drives you to be so argumentative and adamant on this subject in general; I know there are certain things that I find very triggering based on past experiences so I can get quite obsessive about them, but I usually manage to tell myself that other's experiences are different so they may see things differently.

Totally getting rid of the laugh emoji I think would be a bit overkill - what on earth should we use when we genuinely find something very funny, like puppy or kitten pics, or memes that people have copied in their posts, or jokes, or just very amusing comments (that are meant to amuse).

kimchisauchio ·
"And that is what you decided to bless the thread with! "

You like many posters when they have nothing constructive to say just create your own narrative.

Or we speculate
which is reasonable given all the information is from the OP
so why wouldn’t we think about other possibilities based on the OP’s extensive posting

Whereas some posters just jump in with no comment about the OP whatsoever
just to attempt to censor it

Makes me think of 🧦 s

Am I missing something? Surely he's only showing himself up if he says she's lacking in experience if she has evidence to the contrary.

I do think the laugh emoji will be dispatched, as it has been used to hurt others. If you say that you consider other points of view, then maybe think about it.

Your response in itself dismisses what I have to say.

I think that what a lot of people are forgetting is that there is a barrier between the academics and the students, which is called Admin. And they are very rule-bound and rigid. And they feel they have to be because they are managing so many students.

Accidentally upload the wrong draft of your assignment to Blackboard? Too bad. You can’t delete it, you can’t replace it, you can’t email the final draft to the course tutor. Privately agree with the course tutor that you should join the seminars on Tuesday rather than Monday? You get a massive telling off by email and the tutor wonders why you’ve shifted back to Mondays (unless you have the confidence to write back to admin, which many, many people do not. Ask your dissertation supervisor for a one-to-one? Sorry, no, we only do group meetings in which other students share how far they’ve got. Ask for another meeting with the PT? You’ve got to use our new booking system; oops, there isn’t another space until next term.

Academics only see their part of HE from the inside. There are many, many more stakeholders involved than just academics and students. And remember that, even though paying fees suggests that students are ‘customers’, in reality undergraduates have almost zero power, certainly compared to admin and salaried academics. I don’t know and I’m past caring about the details of this particular situation, but I do think that disparaging the OP’s daughter as ‘rule-bound’ is forgetting that students, too, are humans, and very inexperienced and powerless ones at that.

I am old enough to know that going to uni was the passport to much higher earnings and a good job. That premium is getting much smaller and, for a sizeable minority, has gone altogether. They are not getting any premium other than enjoying their uni years. I don’t see why students should not aim for good employment as students did years ago. The ambition should not change at all. The difficulty is the amount of competition. Hence the OP wants her DD to curate her career.

presumably you’re referring to your DS’ university to which you have formally complained?

I’ve disagreed with BeAzure on pretty much everything on this thread but this is one area I can say I agree: I’d also like to see the laugh emoji taken away.

I’ve frequently seen it used in a
malicious mocking way on Facebook and I’d imagine it’s used in that way on here.

The other emojis I don’t mind but not the laugh emoji.

I’ve frequently seen it used in a malicious mocking way on Facebook and I’d imagine it’s used in that way on here. The other emojis I don’t mind but not the laugh emoji.

That's a sad comment on the world in general I think. I (and others) use it frequently on another part of Mumsnet - to genuinely laugh at things everyone there finds funny, usually pictures but also often at (intentionally) funny comments people have made. A case of some people using a previously un-offensive emoji meaning people who use it for the correct purpose are punished.

My life is complete without any form of emoji so I don’t care what happens. But technically the laugh or the clap could be used sarcastically.

Either way, posters who domineer for an entire thread are likely to encounter some form of feedback whether via emoticons or direct comment.

I would like a "disagree" option. I have also disagreed with a lot of posts on this thread but I do not feel safe to say anything on it.

I use the laughing emoji when a post has genuinely made me smile, not just in the sense of something being funny, more in a sarcastic. A 'disagree' would be more appropriate.

Professional services staff do have to be pretty strict because they are the ones dealing with external examiners, the competition and markets authority etc. But generally as a student and as an academic I find that they are very willing to bend the rules where they can, especially if you are cordial and don't relegate their expertise to 'admin'.

It IS admin though. I’m not denigrating the people who do the job, but stating what it is. The touchiness on this thread!

A very touchy thread indeed! Many raw nerves hit all over the place.

It makes me pretty scared about my poor kids' futures...the difficulties they may encounter and the touchiness of those involved.

No blame allocated anywhere, it's not an easy world at the moment for many of us.

Of course not. My son is a grown man. If he wants to complain it’s up to him. It’s not for me to discuss and it’s certainly none of your business.

I think complaining about the way a university is run is a pointless exercise though. It’s just how it is. Complaints should be reserved for individual instances of unfair treatment or incompetence.

I will point out, finally, that my son is by no means the only recent graduate or current undergraduate that I know. And those young people attend or attended a range of different universities, all with similar systems and processes for the administration of undergraduate degrees. However, experiences at the post-1992 universities seem to have been a bit more student-focused.

I thought you said your Ds had complained and he was awaiting the outcome? Ie it was ongoing

on what basis is your close insight into the mechanics of uni departments?

I’m sorry. Am I in court? I don’t remember agreeing to a cross-examination.

Oh don’t be dramatic 🤭