Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

That's not surprising - universities have a range of support teams and services. Often the job of the PT is not to know everything but to point the student in the direction of the resident expert, eg housing support team if they have a landlord problem.

Ok, so what is the problem? If the PT was aware and the situation was being deal with? PT often direct students to resources...people work together to sort things.

sorry crossposted with @DoctorDoctor

The whole situation is odd isn't it? I'm not sure why this is, but it is odd.

i’m wondering whether the DD has been entirely honest with her mother, the OP

I think you are right. It doesn't make sense.

Academics are used to having to write fairly damning appraisals of other people's work eg during peer review of papers and grants and always when they do so, they have a cloak of anonymity Even if they know the people whose work it is, they don't discuss it even mention that they've reviewed the work, so why would an academic who is used to working in this way suddenly tell a student about a reference they've written after the event, rather than simply saying, "yes, I've sent your reference".

But then isn't that what the PT could/should have done here? Politely explained that he didn't believe he was the right person to write this reference and directed the student elsewhere. That would be completely ok. What isn't ok is to provide incorrect information.

Yep. It is called anonymous peer review for a reason. It is just all so weird.

Yes, this point was made upthread by another poster @redstroll

This is the whole point of the thread: the situation is hard to understand. It's not an insight to say something doesn't add up.

But the OP’s daughter is not the only one on this thread with experience of this.

And there are a lot of contradictory statements on this thread. We’ve had:

• You can’t expect more than 10 minutes because the PT has 50 other tutees
• Students (and their parents) are too demanding
• It’s the students’ fault that their PT doesn’t know them very well because they should be demanding more time from them
• PTs have more important things to do than write references for people they barely know

In practical terms, it simply may not be possible to get more than 10 minutes a term, whether there is a rule or not. Since Covid, lots of organisations, including universities, have seized the chance to automate processes such as booking systems. It’s all done in 10- minute chunks and you get what you’re given.

The OP’s daughter will have graduated by the time some people on this thread agree.

It is an insight if your portrayal of the situation is wildly against what academics experience when dealing with students. I’m not the only one to think it is odd/doesn’t add up.

here’s the choices.

1. accept/endure it silently
2. complain on mumsnet.
3. Daughter sees the PT and fixes it/complain through channels—this is in her power if she wants to exercise it.
4. Leave the university if she’s not happy, and go somewhere more suited where she can get all the personal attention she needs for what she wants to do. There are excellent small liberal arts university in the States where class sizes are small. St John’s (campuses in Maryland or Santa Fe) or Reed or Haverford perhaps. Some of the women’s ivies are good…Smith (relative went there) or Mt. Holyoke. Costly, but loads and loads of pastoral care.

Good luck.

My DD doesn't need a lot of pastoral care. I think however her PT might need a bit more time to do his job and that is the issue to address moving forward.

Yes, people do have 50 tutees sometime. I did. PTs will see students for more time if it is important. I did. But they have to have it indicated somehow by the student that it is important. The student has some responsibility to indicate it is such. Most PTs don’t have ESP.

No one said students and parents are too demanding. Some people mentioned that it was close to the holidays, and the PT shouldn’t be working whilst on leave, but I’m not sure that is demanding.

PT’s often cannot write references for people they barely know. It the form asks for the student’s ability to make an oral presentation, or their ability to handle group work or work as a team, and you don’t teach them, you really can’t write it.

She’s a rising second year. I suppose there can be parts 15, 16, and 17 on here where people can discuss it through graduate school if they want.

Ok. Hope you sort it out constructively.

Well if he’s had no complaints ever before

and not clear whether your daughter is intending to complain or not as you wish to keep that under wraps

then it won’t be “addressed loving forwards” will it

So you did everything perfectly, giving every student the time they wanted even if you had too many students to look after to start with. Bully for you - you are obviously the ideal PT.

But clearly not all PTs are equal. Some have an interest in the students they are supposed to be supporting, others don't. Some will do as much as they can to help, others look on the role as a necessary evil to get done & out of the way as quickly as possible. Some may be naturally good at the role, others not so however hard they try. Some may even be people who are only at Uni to do their favorite research, and look upon the students as a PITA that they want to be rid of as soon as possible even to the degree of being intentionally unpleasant (akin to some midwives who are cruel and dismissive of birthing mothers and their pain).

Either the PT is the right person to give the reference or not - in different places in this thread you have suggested that he is, and despite the short timescales between the application and the deadline with the holidays in between, the incorrect reference would have been OK if the student had asked for another longer timeslot even when there were none available & only 10 minutes anyway - as I said above, not all PTs bother to go over & above the minimum. Then in your most recent post you say the PT should have declined if he didn't know the student well enough.

I really don't understand why, but you seem very defensive about how PTs behave and seem to assume they are all perfect and never fail to do their job well; it's almost like you're taking a comment about some PTs as a personal attack, which assuming you aren't the PT in this case seems very strange - surely you can understand that in every role you have people who are good, bad or indifferent?

I'm also slightly surprised that someone with a long and apparently illustrious career feels the needs to go into their experience and abilities in such great detail at any opportunity, this is something I would expect more from somebody with a shortage of confidence which you clearly aren't. All leaves me wondering what your agenda is on this thread...

Actually I took my job quite seriously and did give the students the time they needed.

I said upthread some people dial it in, but that isn’t unique to academics.

We received more information as the thread went along. So that changes responses, no?

I mentioned my experience to the OP because I was trying to show the situation was quite odd with regard to PT. I offered detailed information because the situation was really unusual.

I have no agenda here. I’m providing information based on professional expertise. But I also am not going to be attacked or treated badly. Upthread the mods mentioned personal attacks here will lead to possible account suspension.

So, carry on.

the pressure this poor girl will be under from the OP

The OP will obviously say that this is “DEFINITELY” not the case, but I reckon the DD is not being honest with her mother because either she doesn’t want to do the summer school OR she knows she’s unlikely to get on to the summer school

No problem @wigsonthegreenandhatsforthelifting reporting you for a laughing emoji and mocking.

So defensive, so invested in proving that it can't possibly be the PT in error and must be something the student didn't do right. Or that the OP is misleading us all regarding the rules of the particular institution in this case. And so sensitive that someone giving their opinion about your posts that they find amusing, that you report them. I get the impression there may be some past trauma that you are relating to here.

This is actually about right in the workload model at my institution. I have 20 Personal Tutees and I'm allocated 10 hours out of my annual hours to be worked. I'm required to have 3 meetings a year with each of them = 10 minutes each 3 times a year.

Of course I do much more than that - my usual annual unpaid overtime is about 400 hours = 10 weeks at 37.5 hour week. And I am rarely able to take my full allowance of annual leave. I lost 10 days last year.

So, yes, you can lambast a careless tutor. I'm offering you another perspective, equally valid.

@AnonymousStudentParent Have you ascertained whether this reference really makes much difference? If your DDs application clearly shows she’s old enough and experienced enough, surely the summer school accepts this? Is the reference so important?

Indeed. And given my outline of the time pressures on Personal tutoring, the only way I can spend time with my tutees beyond the 10 minutes allowed is when others don't turn up.

But - to echo @BeAzureAnt - if something is important, or needs longer than 10 minutes of a routine check-in, I would expect students to email me, asking for a separate appointment, especially if I haven't taught them. I'd also advise them to speak to lecturers who have taught them.

Your DD seems particularly rule-bound, OP, and it's not really doing her any favours. Although you seem to see her following the letter of the law here as a good thing, I'm not sure it is. Academics are human beings, and will respond well if approached appropriately & humanly - your DD should speak with lecturers who've actually taught her!

kimchisauchio · Today 06:34

"the pressure this poor girl will be under from the OP
The OP will obviously say that this is “DEFINITELY” not the case, but I reckon the DD is not being honest with her mother because either she doesn’t want to do the summer school OR she knows she’s unlikely to get on to the summer school"

Sounds like you are just making things up now.