Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

I think you are right about the name change.

I think because I was at a post-92, there was more expectation to be around for pastoral care, not sure...so hence the larger amount of hours. But, yes, I often sat there answering emails or getting on with other work...once in a great while a student would come in and we'd sort things, but they tended to like emails more.

Consistently on this thread your frame of reference for policies and procedures has not been those of my DD's university (the ones I have described) but something else entirely, with frequent reference to your own experience. It's not helpful. I have said multiple times that my DD gets 10' per term, often shortened. Sure, if there were some form of emergency there are people around to talk to. But this isn't an emergency situation but an unremarkably routine one, hence routine policies and procedures apply.

Definitely not the case for DD.

I think I understand what's happened here, your DD and you think that if the policy states X it means X needs to happen and you are seemingly both very rigid in this. That's not how it works in the real world. If the policy states 10 minutes, it means that we will book in for 10 min chat to ensure we can manage workload, but if you email and say, 'Tom, can I have 20 mins?' you will get 20-30 mins, despite the stamped and ratified policy saying 10 minutes.

I haven't encountered any university with a 'rule' that you can only ask your personal tutor to write you a reference. I think it would be very difficult to make that stick in practice. Plus you would need work arounds for occasions like the personal tutor being on sick leave or having left the university.

Sure, the 3rd years are filling it out at her university right now. I actually disagree that the rules are unhelpful. I thought they were really clear and helpful. What was unhelpful was the PT's inability to read and understand the (nice, short, to the point) information supplied. The feedback might be that PTs don't have enough time to do a good job. I think that's very probable.

Absolutely doesn't work like that. There are 10' slots, a queue of students outside the door and it always runs late. There's never a spare moment.

It is helpful when what you're describing is a highly unusual situation (10 minutes maximum a term), whereas what other posters are describing is very much standard. This is why I was so astonished initially at the whole idea of a cap on time you could spend with your personal tutor. It does not operate like that at the vast majority of universities and rightly so.

It's really unhelpful when posters are insistent that their own personal experience of their own universities must be universal and my DD cannot possibly be right about her experience of policies and procedures at her university.

There are plenty of parent PP who have experience of their children having little PT contact. One of our older DC got masses and one of them literally none. Same subject, different universities (both upper RG as if it mattered).

Right. I have taught for 30 years

USA:

two community colleges

a small selective liberal arts university in the States;
a state university in the States (like a Russell Group)
a branch state university in the States

UK
Oxford
A Russell Group
A post 92

I also gave seminar sessions in Ireland at TCD and Germany at a science institute, as well as at national academies in the sciences.

I've pretty much taught at iterations of most types of universities and research institutes in a number of countries. I'm in an interdisciplinary field, so have taught in the science and the humanities.

I've found policies on advising students remarkably similar at these places.
For your information, it doesn't have to be an emergency to see a personal tutor about something important, like an application. If the PT was required to give a reference for your daughter, then it would be extraordinarily weird for her to be forbidden from making an appointment. Zoom/teams are also available. It would also be very strange for lecturers to have no feedback hours/office hours at all, especially because feedback is an NSS question, as was mentioned upthread. If your daughter as you said loves talking to academics, then I'm finding this all rather puzzling.

The advise is that if you have an important application that requires a recommendation from someone, that you follow up if there is a problem, like a birthdate that is wrong, etc. If necessary, you have a more extended discussion. As I said, the situation your DD finds herself in may be partially due to this.

@AnonymousStudentParent 28 pages in and you are no further forward. She had to provide a reference from this uni. She had to ask her PT. She gets limited time with her PT. He made incorrect statements. I’ve no definite idea what she can do now. I know you haven’t liked raking over the past, but there’s limited options for the future to rectify the position. It essentially boils down to do nothing, try and get it amended or complain. If everything stacks up on her cv then the lack of experience referred to in the reference makes no difference to the summer school because it’s at odds with evidenced experience. So can they not see past the reference?

So: complain? Is it worth it? What is there to gain? See the PT at another meeting? Could he send a correction? Not sure he can but there needs to be an evaluation about how much more this can be pursued. 28 pages later.

And so what? I work with schools quite a lot, lots of them (many many more than the universities you list). They are relatively easy to segment into types that function in certain reasonably predictable ways but each type is quite different from the others. People working within one type of school tend to take new jobs in similar schools, hence they end up believing that "all schools are like theirs" with universal functioning mechanisms whereas no, their type of school functions in a certain way.

To my understanding we don't know if he actually made incorrect statements.

It could have been a communication error. So pt writes bland statement, dd comes to pt and says "did you submit" he says "yes but I think you may want to be more qualified and older before attending (because you may be out of your depth and it could switch you off the subject " and she hears "I wrote you were too young and under qualified".

But the thing is, I'm not the only one on this thread telling you this is really odd.
I'd really like to see a link to the PT policy at your university stating that students are only allowed to see their PT's for 10 minutes a term. If anything, this can be brought to the attention of the National Office for Students.

If I as a UG were assaulted or my friend was murdered (both have happened to my tutees) I would not be wanting to wait for ‘the next 10 minute slot’ which may be some time in the future. I cannot imagine any VC, Dean or Head of School in the UK finding this acceptable.

It is a question of degree, not kind. Generally discussing the need for a letter of reference is considered serious enough that staff are expected to make time for it.

Absolutely.

Sure, if it is boilerplate...can you confirm this student had you as an instructor and did they graduate with this degree classification, that's checking, a form filling and an email to the prospective employer. But if it is a need for advice for something more important like a fairly detailed letter, that is a meeting. I've even told students to let their different letters emphasise different strengths/purposes so the assessment panel gets a complete picture. This whole thing seems so odd.

One of my DD's friends has had a serious health issue recently. Student Welfare Officers have dealt with everything not the PT.

@Tommarvolo Shes old enough and experienced enough according to the OP. Therefore it’s an evaluation of experiences enough, as her age qualifies her. The issue could be the evidence he has makes him think she’s inexperienced. Therefore if you cannot see him to correct this, the only option is to give him her cv. That was in the holidays I think. I tend to think it’s lack of communication and the DD not being able to get around the rules. The rules appear rigid but the OP insists they are. A referee must be truthful but getting the facts to him seem to be far too difficult.

But I would think that the PT would have been made aware...if anything for attendance if there were excused absences, that sort of thing. Because generally if a student is absent too much, the PT is contacted and asked about it.

But perhaps not according to the PT who might know the summer school or have understood something about it the dd didnt. But I'd bet my bottom dollar the PT didn't write anything of the sort and the dd just misunderstood.

I'm sure. But for sure the PT wasn't spending time with the friend (who is DD's flatmate so she has a fairly good idea of what's been going on). All appointments are with Student Welfare.

Stop conjecture. My DD knows far more about the summer school than the PT does.

Yes, there's a real shortage of time issue baked into the system.

@AnonymousStudentParent Do, going forward, what can DD do? There needs to be some way to resolve this before any further applications. What will she do?

But she may have misunderstood what the PT meant. I find it really hard to believe that he deliberately sent a reference that scuppered her chances AND told her about it after the fact. Something doesn't add up.