Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

I wonder why he shared details of his reference with the student in any case? References are usually given closed and confidential. I have never shared details of what I've written in a reference, whether for a student or for an employee. I have only shared the information that the reference has been sent. Standard practice in order to avoid professional conflict or awkwardness and a closed reference is always considered more valuable than an open one.

I wonder if he shared details of his reference as a way of feeding back to the student his thoughts on her applying for the summer school. It sounds as though a more constructive approach might be to discuss with him how she could improve her knowledge, experience etc to be a stronger candidate next year, or at some point in the future.

Further, within any particular field, the academic puts his or her own reputation on the line if they are overly supportive of someone they actually believe might be under qualified in comparison with other applicants.

A complaint to the HoD is unlikely to achieve anything in particular other than acquiring a reputation of being that student.

I’ve not denied passive aggression isn’t used by British people… eh? Where did I do that?

It may be used by SOME British people but you just like to slander an entire people to fit your theory that people are insulting you.

Weird!

Again, he doesn't need to be overly supportive. He does need to be factually accurate.

I ask again, are you a psychologist? What are your qualifications to make such judgments?

I don't want to be prosyletised to; I told you I hoped that wasn't your intent.

Do you deny that passive aggression is inherent to British culture? I'm not the first person to say this. Kate Fox wrote a best selling book about it called Watching the English...it has a whole section on ineffectual passive aggression. She's an anthropologist.

I think it has been used as a textbook even.

It actually was shown by anthropologist Kate Fox to be an inherent cultural trait. I simply provided the historical basis for it.

I am interested in posting on this thread and I am getting really fed up that you are attacking me every single time I post.

I do not want to interact with you. I am not reading your posts.

Fair enough. You are getting wound up. But if you have a problem with me, just say. Don't post vague attacks. I really don't care what you think of me or not, but I'm not going to be insulted via allusion. If you hate my guts, tell me. That's totally OK with me.

I have said more than once that I do not wish to interact with you. You just won't give up! I am not in the least bit wound up, just sick of being harassed! And that is my final word on the subject. I will not reply to you again.

Ok. Just don't write passive aggressive remarks about me or alluding to me, and we're cool

Hi folks

This thread seems to be getting personal. Can we draw a line now, and avoid making personal remarks about individual posters? Further posts will be removed and likely result in a temporary suspension.

OP I hope your DD gets a place on the summer school. More than anything I wanted to acknowledge your help and support and that you’re a lovely DM, just trying her best to help her DD. Good luck 🍀

Thank you.

Thank you. I raised both of these points earlier and got no reaction.

I wondered whether the PT was exhibiting a poor attempt at humour. If so this begs the question: was it a reaction to something and if so, what? Not that this gets him off the hook, IMO.

If he couldn’t give a good reference he should have gone back to the student and told her. Instead he plunged right in with inaccuracies and she hadn’t even completed her application. Seems highly unprofessional.

I agree. It's perfectly acceptable to politely decline and point the student in another direction.

To do it but introduce your subjective opinions and, worse, make factually incorrect statements, not so much.

Maybe academia works slightly differently but if you did this in the business world you could get yourself into some serious trouble. All he had to do was ask/check with her.

@poetryandwine We did have a conversation about whether references were confidential and I also posted what Edinburgh say about them. Many employers don’t write them any more but some will. It’s a bit like advertising: be legal, truthful (and decent!!) I think this issue has been overblown and hopefully the DD can see her personal tutor so she understands the reservations. Or understands how a mistake was made.

I think you might have a good point in terms of it may have been a badly placed attempt at humour, saying, "yes, I've written your reference, this is what I've said...." thinking she wouldn't take it seriously.

Quite probably only time will tell. Thinking about it though, it's quite a probable explanation. I've maybe done similar in terms of writing a glowing reference and then said, "I've sent it off, but well....." but usually with a grin and a, "I think you'll be fine" reassurance afterwards to let them know I'm pulling their legs.

Hi, @TizerorFizz -

Thanks for posting the Edinburgh guidance, which appears to be specific to letters for students.

I think it is probably typical. It doesn’t address the situation, when applying for a PG or postdoctoral opportunity, where the applicant is invited to waive their right to see the letter of reference. Is the waiver legally binding?

I sure hope so. Not because I have ever written a damning letter, but because most useful academic letters contain rankings, by request, and very few of us are where we would like to be.

There is no point in sharing those rankings with the subject. Students and early career researchers don’t realise that a letter can be strong and helpful without being full of unbounded praise, ranking the person at the top, etc.

I worked for a Government funded institution and when we were asked to write references for employees looking for work inside and outside of the institution, we were given strict instructions from HR never to write anything negative. So if we were grading someone on efficiency, 1-5 with 5 being the top and 1 being the bottom, you'd never go below a 3, but it was universally understood that that was the bottom of the heap.

So honestly, reading this thread really surprised me that this system was not universally employed, if only to cover arses. It also surprised me greatly that the tutor showed / shared the reference letter to the student.

I don't know if this is possible OP but can your DD get a letter from someone else? From the head of dept?

I don't think a relationship between a PT and a student would lend itself to that though would it? It's quite 'formal'?

You'd only say that if you knew the person well enough?

This is interesting.

A strong doctoral programme asking for centile ratings will often adopt the strategy you use implicitly. The letter writer might be asked to tick

Top 10%
Top 25%
Top 35%
Top 50%
None of the above

And you look deep into your heart before ticking the last. I never have.

@wigsonthegreenandhatsforthelifting it depends on the PT and the student.

When I started I was relatively young as a permanent academic (late 20s). Unless we have more details, it's probably not possible to comment.

It does sound as though the OP is overinvested in her adult daughter's career though. The student will need to develop a thicker skin of she's looking at an academic career.

I think this is right.

Did you decline to do the reference when the None of the Above was the case?

Or she could have checked with him. She had some responsibility to do so.