Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

maybe, but it didn’t sound like the student and the PT knew each other very well.

Yes, but it seems this PT spent very limited time with the student.

I don't think the OP is over-invested at all. I'm similarly supportive of my adult children in their studies and in their career. I could never be accused of having interfered in their choices - in fact DC3 did not consult me at all when choosing a uni because they thought I was ancient and DC1 had more recent experience, and that was fine!! - but I will always have their back and be there for them if they need support. I think that's what a parent is there for.

The OP has said that this child is very independent and also has older, successful DC, so I think she knows what she's doing.

It seems that OPs DD could have signed up for more time with her PT. She chose not to do so. Some of this is on her.

I have declined to write many times, though my own tutees have never asked me to support anything inappropriate. I seem to be a popular backup.

Seeing the forms has never affected anything.

Yes, I have as well. Usually because I didn’t know the student all that well, or because the form was asking for things about character/interpersonal interaction. If I wasn’t teaching them, that’s a little tricky.

I’ll be curious how long there will be confidential recommendations…the student can waive the right to see it. There has been discussion about more open peer review, and I wonder how long it will be before this will percolate over to recommendation letters.

Good for you, integrity matters.

It is going to be interesting to see how long it will take for universities to adopt the rubric of dates attended/marks/degree classification for letters. If anything, this would be to avoid legal stuff as there is more litigation due to the classification of universities as businesses. There are so many rubrics already in academe, such as in marking. Some of it is to be absolutely crystalline clear, and some of it is to avoid complaints/problems.

@poetryandwine I have assumed a reference for a summer school is not, technically, a reference for continuing education in the accepted sense. It’s just something the DD wants to do but it’s not qualifications. In that regard, I think the Edinburgh advice stacks up.

At work, ACAS has good advice. Two types of reference exist: a basic fact reference and a personal reference. The one in question is a personal reference. Following ACAS advice: There can be comments on personal attributes and strengths and, critically, a comment on suitability for the “role”. This however must be backed up with/by evidence. It cannot be plucked out of thin air. It must be fair and accurate and evidence based. If it’s misleading, inaccurate or discriminatory it’s open to challenge. That’s if you get to see it! To ensure fairness, seeing the reference is actually what should happen. Otherwise unfairness doesn’t get called out.

Lastly, if there’s an agreement in place between the referee and the recipient that’s it’s confidential, it becomes difficult to see it. I think the unis work on this basis. They agree confidentiality. However an unfair or even discriminatory reference just gets passed over and nothing happens. I think some people have found this true!

Hi, @TizerorFizz -

We also offer these two types of references. The Student Services Office of each School is the proper place to go for a factual reference.

If for some reason that were all I felt able to provide a personal tutee and they wanted one from me, I would be glad to write it. (This has never happened) For anyone else, there is no point coming to a former teacher who doesn’t have access to their attendance and academic records for a factual reference. The student could provide these records but it would be extra work all around for no gain.

Students should cultivate good relationships with lecturers in their preferred or best modules over the course of their academic career, so they have a choice of where to go for letters.

Thats interesting @poetryandwine DH always says he and his PT couldn't stand each other so after the first couple of terms he did exactly what you recommend here.

More recently DD didn't have much relationship with her PT - nice enough but seemjngly with no interest whatsoever in actually being a PT. Fortunately she now has an MSc so uses her PT from that instead.

Good to hear from a professional that this is a perfectly reasonable approach!

This was not the case, as previously stated by me. I get that the thread has taken on a life of its own full of wild assumptions but it's very tiring to read that my DD should have done something differently when she couldn't.

Exactly. She was only provided with 10-mins sessions and the tutor was evasive. Pretty typical.

At undergrad level references must be barely worth the paper they are written on. PTs will hardly know the students and work experience is probably limited. I wonder why they are even asked for. The best reference would be from some sort of club or volunteering - even then it would be based on a short time period.

Are you claiming she was forbidden from approaching her personal tutor and asking for a longer appointment?

Of course. Often the PT can only provide a boilerplate letter.

I have already said so.

This thread has got unbelievably full of conjecture and the desire to victim-blame is extraordinary.

To clarify, you daughter was forbidden from seeing her personal tutor for longer than 10 minutes. She could not make an appointment to see him?

The first meeting my daughter could have with her PT after the publication of the details of the summer school was the meeting she had at the beginning of this week, which was an allocated 10' slot with slots either side allocated to the PT's other tutees, all of whom of course had their own issues to clarify with him (she wasn't the only student asking for a reference - it's that time of year). The 10' slot was actually about 7' because the tutor was running late.

If she wants another meeting with him this term she can wait until a slot becomes available and sign up - and it will be a 10' slot.

@poetryandwine Yes. I can see a purely factual reference is not PT territory so we move into opinions. The advice for anyone to follow is to make sure it’s evidence based and any comment can be backed up. If the PT knew a student might see it, it might concentrate the mind.

@thing47 I do agree that PTs vary. DD had an excellent one who went on maternity leave. The next one didn’t seem very interested but DD made sure he knew her plans and he supplied the reference for her post grad course. Since then it’s not mattered at all. However they are not all the same quality. As in most jobs!

Hmmm. It was impossible for her to schedule a separate follow up appointment if she had a good reason?

While this PT may have messed up - it depends on the wording of the reference request and his response (and I am still open to the possibility that what he told DD was a badly misplaced tease) - I think that is fairly unusual.

As PP said, academic referees are being judged by peers and often friends. The need to evidence your assertions is baked into academic values. That’s one reason OP’s summary is so puzzling. I think the letter as we understand it will be badly received and this will reflect on him.

I find the whole episode mysterious. I am still at a loss as to how the PT came to impart this information. It’s not something I can imagine anyone volunteering, even in response to a question like ‘do you need any further information from me?’

For anyone reading this with DC at uni it is worth suggesting they see the PT in person regularly because it is good to build up a professional relationship before asking for these things. I send out multiple requests for meetings with my tutees each term and no one responds. Then suddenly you get 'cold called' by them wanting references in their final year. I'll supply a reference but I won't go above and beyond if you've ignored my communication for 3 years. I also won't have a clue if you've handed in work early or turned up to everything unless I go into the system to check attendance rates so thinking that somehow endears the student is a little off the mark.

Agree with this wholeheartedly.

Again, this is conjecture and unhelpful because untrue.