Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

No quite self aware thanks. If I am insulted, I give it directly back to people. They don't like that. They would rather veil insights in politeness or claim that those who they are bullying are unaware/impolite/defensive, or passive aggressive themselves etc. Classic DARVO.
Passive aggression seems a cultural thing in the UK, and it is really interesting to observe.

You’ve done nothing wrong OP.

Youre a mum who cares and have been ridiculed for that.

The thread has been quite the eye opener…

The jealousy and envy… even fury… palpable!!

Who is being jealous and envious? Not a bit of it from me. If you think it is me, why don't you just say that instead of posting around it. Tell me directly. Research shows that women are more likely to be aggressive in an underhanded and indirect way. If you add a dollop of cultural passive aggressiveness to that, the result are the dynamics on this thread.

The way people here deal with anger and conflict is rooted in mores developed in the 18th century. That's really interesting.

Quite normal on MN. People spout rubbish that they would never own in real life.

Thinking about this more, I think the OP and her DD might have overreacted. All he said was he didn't think her DD was ready. If the evidence in her application contradicts that, I am sure those who run the summer school are capable of grasping that and offering her a place anyway.

And I assume there's always next year?

Anyway come back and tell us if she gets a place!

Since the PT has now opened discussion with her, the best thing for her to do would be to reply to the PT and say that she is a bit concerned about his comment that she is too young and inexperienced. She is very keen to take part in this summer school this year or in the future. Could she have a meeting with him to go though what she has done so far and how she might improve her application?

This gives her an opportunity to inform him of the things he does not know about, giving him an opening to suggest revising his reference if he believes this is the correct course of action given this new information. If he doesn't decide to revise the reference, it gives her some information on how to improve for a future application. As the PT seems to be a 'person in the field' of whatever the OP's DD is interested in, hard though it is, being conciliatory and polite about this is likely to be a better approach to getting what she wants from him, now and in the future.

When you are applying for very competitive things, there is a difference between being technically qualified to apply and being a good candidate. For example, it may well be that, given the PT's knowledge of the summer school, he believes that it is better suited to people who are more advanced in their academic careers, so while technically, the OP's DD meets the criteria for applying, she is indeed too young and inexperienced for him to consider her a good candidate. Particularly given he doesn't know about all her experience. Most academics would not have put it so bluntly in a reference, but he is not necessarily wrong.

It's absolutely fine for the OP to discuss with her DD her application, aspirations and how to approach difficult issues. The OP should not try to intervene on her DD's behalf, but she hasn't suggested doing that.

That is a reasonable assessment of the situation, yes.

I actually do stand by everything I said on here, and I surely would in real life. If people are being nasty to me, I tell them to knock it off. No indirect stuff. Generally it nips it in the bud. They go away (Hooray!)

The thing is, @BeAzureAnt this is open forum so you're going to get a wide range of people posting. People with all sorts of qualifications, and none. People with different views and different ways of expressing them, different tones and styles of speech. What some see as passive-aggressive, others may not; what some see as direct, others may perceive as rude. Nuance and tone are not always easy to express, or to gauge.

As to @AnonymousStudentParent 's original post, when you cut away all the digressions and extraneous information, what it boils down to is that the PT made a factual error (or two) on the reference. that is poor. As this is a formal reference he needs to correct those errors, he doesnt need to be gushingly positive, but he does need to be accurate.

did this tutor agree to do other student’s references or just your son?

As to the first paragraph of your response, of course, that can happen. But really, there was some pretty passive aggressive stuff going on here. Laugh emojis to mock someone? There is a whole thread about just this issue being problematic. It is passive aggressive, and I'm calling it out. This indirect aggression has a deep historical basis in the UK, so it isn't surprising it happens, but it is unfortunate that people cannot be direct and honest with each other and sort it out.

I also notice (and I don't think you are doing this), that when some is bullied, people like to say...oh, well, you know, they didn't mean it that way, or your tone is inappropriate. Blame the victim. This sort of stuff is rife to keep people in their place. Again, there is a historical precedent for it here in the UK based on class and gender and race.

Yes, the PT might have gotten the date of birth wrong because the DD sees him (her choice), 10 minutes a term. The rest of what he said may be very accurate. The OP's DD may be underqualifed, she may be nice and hardwording. So, fix the problem. Go in and sort it out. DD can get in touch with the PT, and get it fixed, go see the PT personally, get another PT, go see the HOS, write the people that judge the application, get another reference. Lots of choices possible. Many, many people have suggested this.

As I said upthread, you can complain and post here, you can put up with it, you can go through official channels, or the DD can go to what she thinks is a better university. That's it.

Thank you for this thoughtful post.

How often they meet is not relevant, though. He needs to be factually accurate. If he isn't sure on something, he needs to check. Not make shit up. All he has to do is email the student back with questions if he isn't sure.

@Phphion this sort of subjective opinion about her being too young and inexperienced has no place on a formal reference though. He might believe that it is more suited to people more advanced in their academic careers, but that is not his decision to make, unless he is part of the admissions process to the summer course.

You are overly defensive. I was not writing to you nor commenting to your post.

I hope this won’t overstep the mark but have you read any Echkart Tolle?

If you find discourse about human behaviour interesting, his deep dive into the ego and why people cling to the need to be right, is enlightening. I found it life changing myself. While is represents itself as spiritual enlightenment it is actually for me at least a discussion on why people choose to fight. When you become aware of your own ego, it’s a powerful thing because you start to see it in others and how so many people are ruled by this powerful sometimes utterly destructive force.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Practising-Power-Now-Meditations-Exercises/dp/0340822538/ref=asc_df_0340822538?mcid=a6e8a28e4b713399a35a19f086f0ef56&hvocijid=10156215252869391030-0340822538-&hvexpln=74&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=696285193871&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10156215252869391030&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006668&hvtargid=pla-2281435177818&psc=1&gad_source=1

This plus the gifts of imperfection by Brene Brown are really a bedrock to understand in my view much of human behaviour.

We don't know what was asked of referees. It is very common for academic references to ask the referee to comment on the applicant's suitability for the thing they are applying for and this summer school appears to be an academic one @thing47

Well, if you want a letter of recommendation from someone, it seems common sense to meet with them more than 10 minutes a term? We don't know he was making things up...he may have made a mistake on the birthdate.

So, relevant experience or inexperience for a school or a job should never be mentioned on a reference? Is this what you are claiming?

Yes, read Tolle our of curiosity. I'm an atheist, and I don't see any direct proof of divine force, so whilst some of it was interesting, the rest didn't seem relevant. It was kind of woo woo.

However, I also read several books on bullying which taught me to nip it in the bud. Conflict is fine, boundaries are important. People will sometimes tell you are overly defensive in an attempt to silence you...They even sometimes make recommendations for books that will be good for your misguided soul to read. Let's hope that isn't what you are trying to do.

Thank you for this post

Perhaps he shouldn’t make sweeping statements about those things he doesn’t know about then, and as you’ve said, stick to what he does. Oh, he could’ve gone the extra mile, and actually given her some advice on how to tailor her application accordingly based on his thoughts about experience. That conversation might have reminded him about who she actually was.

Whilst I was still research-active there weren't many people worldwide I hadn't crossed paths with in my field at some point, many of whom were personal friends because being at similar career stages we'd studied together, worked together, collaborated on projects together or people working for us had moved between research groups etc.

Totally agree @Fuckingpissedoff1234 and that's my experience too - which is often used to benefit my students (not that they ever thank me for it). But many parents of undergrads on MN don't quite understand this, and don't listen to our word/experience on this.

And in other news, Newcastle University is 20 million in the hole.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3d5ekmp8xeo

The HE sector is falling like dominos

Indeed.

No need for this, really.

And in other news, Newcastle University is 20 million in the hole.

The HE sector is falling like dominos

People will have to face the fact that the £9k tuition fee does not cover the costts of educating an undergraduate (in any discipline) in the way that is being demanded.

We've just used up a precious position to appoint a Pastoral Advisor instead of a Teaching Fellow (ie someone who's entire contracted time is devoted to teaching & the administration of teaching) because up to a third of our students are SO unprepared for the normal stresses of a university education, and lack the resilience and desire to achieve. And I teach at a top-ranking RG university.

The actual costs of teaching an undergrad are reflected in the overseas student fees. Home students are subsidised by our overseas students (who, in my experience, are better prepared & harder workers).

Please clarify. Do you think that someone should be insulted and take it?

The tuition rate has hardly been increased since 2012. I think it was £9000 then? Upthread, I put a link to a Times Higher Ed article about this.

There was a proposal a while ago that all personal tutors should have to take formal training in psychology and counselling, like a degree on the side. I guess that would be on top of everything else, but that's not what we are there for. We are there to teach in our subject, research in our subject, and advise...it it is a MH problem, then that's outside our expertise.

I externalled for a MA programme that largely consisted of Chinese students who paid the higher fees. I was really impressed by their work ethic, especially because they were writing/reading in a second language. Excellent papers. They are going back to China, and the Chinese universities are soon going to surpass the British ones. They won't need to come over here.

To be fair you didn't have to use them for my degree either but it was the type where you did 12 different modules a year, all with different lecturers, and very few of them were tutorial based, just lectures (sometimes to up to 200 people) so it wasn't as if you built up good relationships with any other lecturers for them to "know" you and give any sort of meaningful reference either.

My masters was completely different- much smaller group and tutorial based modules and then my pt also supervised my dissertation so actually knew me.