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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

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Devastated DD - awful reference

955 replies

AnonymousStudentParent · 15/01/2025 13:38

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

OP posts:
LoneAndLoco · 16/01/2025 11:24

Yalta · 16/01/2025 11:17

They can be sued if what they write is lies

Thank you @yalta. Yes, employers for example have to be very careful. If they could just go around writing lies they could actually stop an employee seeking a better employer and salary!

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 11:27

redstroll · 16/01/2025 11:23

i read “there are many more options” to mean you’re considering rocking up at front door of this poor chap to confront him! 🤭

I'm not sure what else there is really.

LoneAndLoco · 16/01/2025 11:30

Age is a fact. It appears he got that wrong and made his own subjective comments.

Yalta · 16/01/2025 11:40

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 11:21

She might be underqualified. We don't know.
As far as the age thing, well, then the DD sees the personal tutor about it and books in for longer than 10 minutes and solves the problem.

Still doesn’t mean what he wrote wasn’t libelous

She pointed out to him her qualifications for the course. If he needed to see proof the dd was happy to give it. Instead he said she didn’t have the qualifications

The reference infers that only if the summer school was absolutely desperate to fill places should they consider taking this person.

I am presuming that PT’s subject is literature because that reference could be argued was a work of fiction and no other subject I can think of doesn’t require you to fact check what you write

thing47 · 16/01/2025 11:42

I would always favour cock-up over conspiracy, so don't think there's much merit in speculating about the PT's 'motives'.

But yes a reference should absolutely be factually correct and should not contain subjective opinion. if PT is saying OP's DD is too young, then he has made a factual error, and if he is offering his opinion that she is too young (ie not mature enough), then that is a subjective judgment which is not appropriate in a formal reference.

In any case, if you are asked for a reference and don't feel you can provide a supportive one - for whatever reason - then common courtesy would dictate you should either politely decline or at the very least have a conversation with the person who has asked in order to ascertain the relevant facts. If the PT has done neither of these things, he is at fault.

AnonymousBleep · 16/01/2025 11:47

redstroll · 16/01/2025 10:26

this is what you said

Possibly he has other students who would like a place on this summer school? Maybe MA students? The summer school, which is very small, is unlikely to take more than one student from any single institution.

which would indicate you very much think it’s a possibility this tutor intentionally sabotaged your daughter’s application to favour other students

He might have sabotaged her or he might not. We'll never know. You do seem very invested in this random guy actually being a good person with good intentions when he might just be a massive twat. They exist among university lecturers as much as any other professions.

NewFriendlyLadybird · 16/01/2025 11:47

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 08:53

Why didn't you complain?

Because I’m his parent and it’s not my place to make the complaint.

But don’t assume that he hasn’t.

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 11:49

NewFriendlyLadybird · 16/01/2025 11:47

Because I’m his parent and it’s not my place to make the complaint.

But don’t assume that he hasn’t.

What was the result of the complaint?

Chouette77 · 16/01/2025 11:50

I've no idea what happened, or why, but I do know how demotivated, disengaged, overworked and underpaid academics are in the UK. It's certainly not the job it used to be. With that amount of pressure, mistakes can easily happened. Perhaps if she re approaches him with empathy, with the assumption it was a genuine mistake, it might help the outcome. I can understand why your DD is so upset, but she sounds amazing and I'm sure she will figure out the best way forward.

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 11:50

AnonymousBleep · 16/01/2025 11:47

He might have sabotaged her or he might not. We'll never know. You do seem very invested in this random guy actually being a good person with good intentions when he might just be a massive twat. They exist among university lecturers as much as any other professions.

Because it isn't that likely. As a poster upthread, maybe a cockup instead of malice.

AnonymousBleep · 16/01/2025 11:52

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 11:50

Because it isn't that likely. As a poster upthread, maybe a cockup instead of malice.

The thing is, nobody knows the guy and nobody knows his motivation. Some academics don't like high achievers in their own field. They view them as a threat. Maybe he's one of them. It's as likely as anything else tbh.

NewFriendlyLadybird · 16/01/2025 12:03

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 11:49

What was the result of the complaint?

There is no result as yet and that’s all I’m going to say.

poetryandwine · 16/01/2025 12:16

Well said, @thing47

I don’t think I’ve ever known an academic to feel threatened by an undergraduate’s accomplishments, ,@AnonymousBleep . Though I remember an amusing if highly improbable episode of the television series Lewis where this was the motive for murder.

AnonymousBleep · 16/01/2025 12:18

poetryandwine · 16/01/2025 12:16

Well said, @thing47

I don’t think I’ve ever known an academic to feel threatened by an undergraduate’s accomplishments, ,@AnonymousBleep . Though I remember an amusing if highly improbable episode of the television series Lewis where this was the motive for murder.

Oh, I have.

It was the theme of an episode in the new C4 series of Patience, too.

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 12:47

NewFriendlyLadybird · 16/01/2025 12:03

There is no result as yet and that’s all I’m going to say.

Oh, OK.

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 12:48

AnonymousBleep · 16/01/2025 11:52

The thing is, nobody knows the guy and nobody knows his motivation. Some academics don't like high achievers in their own field. They view them as a threat. Maybe he's one of them. It's as likely as anything else tbh.

I've never been threatened by any undergraduate. They are students, some more talented than others. It is pretty improbable that all academics are out to sabotage students. That is unless your world view is that everyone is out to get you and sabotage you. And if that is so, that's another problem entirely.

Fuckingpissedoff1234 · 16/01/2025 12:50

Another thing to bear in mind is that within most academic fields, it's a small world. It's quite probably he's already familiar with the summer school if it's prestigious and he may well know (as personal friends or professional acquaintances) some or all of the people running it and what they are looking for.

Whilst I was still research-active there weren't many people worldwide I hadn't crossed paths with in my field at some point, many of whom were personal friends because being at similar career stages we'd studied together, worked together, collaborated on projects together or people working for us had moved between research groups etc.

As someone else has said, I've never known an academic to feel threatened by an undergraduate. Most will have been at the top of their cohorts for UG, postgrad and postdoc and a national or usually international (esp if RG academics) reputation within their field.

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 12:50

AnonymousBleep · 16/01/2025 12:18

Oh, I have.

It was the theme of an episode in the new C4 series of Patience, too.

Yes, well telly is always an accurate reflection of reality.

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 12:52

Fuckingpissedoff1234 · 16/01/2025 12:50

Another thing to bear in mind is that within most academic fields, it's a small world. It's quite probably he's already familiar with the summer school if it's prestigious and he may well know (as personal friends or professional acquaintances) some or all of the people running it and what they are looking for.

Whilst I was still research-active there weren't many people worldwide I hadn't crossed paths with in my field at some point, many of whom were personal friends because being at similar career stages we'd studied together, worked together, collaborated on projects together or people working for us had moved between research groups etc.

As someone else has said, I've never known an academic to feel threatened by an undergraduate. Most will have been at the top of their cohorts for UG, postgrad and postdoc and a national or usually international (esp if RG academics) reputation within their field.

Thank you for this good and measured comment, maybe except about the RG academics being better. We recruited JCRs from Oxbridge in our post 92. The market being what is for academic jobs, I'm not too sure how much those hierarchies hold any more...well, maybe except in the public imagination.

Fuckingpissedoff1234 · 16/01/2025 12:55

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 12:52

Thank you for this good and measured comment, maybe except about the RG academics being better. We recruited JCRs from Oxbridge in our post 92. The market being what is for academic jobs, I'm not too sure how much those hierarchies hold any more...well, maybe except in the public imagination.

Thanks. No offence meant in my reference to RG, it's just that's where my experience is from so I can only assume the case is similar in other institutions.

AnonymousBleep · 16/01/2025 12:55

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 12:48

I've never been threatened by any undergraduate. They are students, some more talented than others. It is pretty improbable that all academics are out to sabotage students. That is unless your world view is that everyone is out to get you and sabotage you. And if that is so, that's another problem entirely.

What a defensive response. Obviously nobody has mentioned all academics being out to sabotage their pupils as that would indeed be ridiculous. My best friend is an Oxford don so I do have some insight into this, as well as being a recent postgrad student myself, but you seem really invested in controlling the narrative of this thread, so I'll leave you to it.

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 12:56

Fuckingpissedoff1234 · 16/01/2025 12:55

Thanks. No offence meant in my reference to RG, it's just that's where my experience is from so I can only assume the case is similar in other institutions.

No worries. You wrote a good post

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 12:57

AnonymousBleep · 16/01/2025 12:55

What a defensive response. Obviously nobody has mentioned all academics being out to sabotage their pupils as that would indeed be ridiculous. My best friend is an Oxford don so I do have some insight into this, as well as being a recent postgrad student myself, but you seem really invested in controlling the narrative of this thread, so I'll leave you to it.

Ok, as you wish. Have a good rest of the day. BTW, I was at Oxford as a research fellow and had two fellowships there, but carry on.

BeAzureAnt · 16/01/2025 13:57

This thread showed me that passive aggressiveness is really engrained in British culture, as is the policing about "tone" on mumsnet by the mods. People really don't want to call other people out directly (hence the reaction buttons, snubbing, mean girl behavour), and after doing some reading around the subject, this post from Reddit pretty much nails it. It explains a lot of what I might term "vicious politeness" that I see--it is like a reflex almost. For a more academic approach, see Shaftesbury and the Culture of Politeness which I did read many moons ago. The post below seems to summarise part of it, and explains to me some of what a Chinese friend told me about Britain...behaviour is lickspittle. Kiss the bums of those above you, and spit on the ones below. This thread has been fascinating sociologically.

To give credit to the poster, link below
www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/romwyt/comment/hq5xc0w/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

***

In the 18th century, a novel and formalised idea of "politeness" was created and popularised in Britain as a social phenomenon....the (passive agreesive) behaviour is the remnants of that movement.
The 17th century was an enormously turbulent time in Britain, as with much of Europe. There was the Wars of the Three Kingdoms, including the English civil wars (which killed the greatest proportion of the population of any conflict in English history), the restoration and subsequently the Glorious Revolution and, stretching the century by a few years, Union. The country was enormously and bitterly divided after half a century of violent conflict. There would be violent revolutions, most notably in 1715 and 1745.
Also, there was vast social change going on against this background of a divided society. There was the agricultural revolution changing the countryside and farming population, there was colonialism in India and the Americas and the slave trade creating new fortunes, there was the Enlightenment changing the philosophical framing of the world.
Partly as a way of managing social interaction and avoiding violence in this society, partly to buttress their position in the social order as victors of the 17th century conflict, Whig aristocrats created the idea of Politeness as the only desirable social behaviour. Politeness was characterised in a number of ways, which essentially required to have been educated from birth in a particular (expensive and exclusive) way, have sufficient wealth to behave in that way, and the right social standing.
To be polite, one should (inter alia); avoid giving offence, keep emotions under control at all times (this didn't mean being unemotional, the cult of sentimentality went along with politeness), display an erudite understanding of classical literature and art, have informed taste in contemporary arts, hold entertaining and flowing conversation while discussing contentious topics or even expressing strong opinions on any matter, and avoiding making any direct demands of others.
Being Britain, this was intrinsically linked to social class. It was necessary to be polite with peers and ones betters. It was not necessary to be as polite with ones inferiors (the more inferior, the less need). One emphasised ones position on the social scale through public displays of appropriate politeness. For example, one didn't thank manual staff as that politeness would suggest more social equality than appropriate. If somebody were impolite to a clear social better, it would just emphasise how uncouth, ill-bred and inferior they were. Clearly, the closer the social grades the more subtle the relative degrees of politeness.
Losing control of ones emotions was always impolite, even toward inferiors. One was never angry but could be as insulting and dismissive as appropriate. (This also led to the rise of duelling, should a man lose his temper and insult or strike a social equal then returning the blow was deeply impolite, scheduling a time to attempt to murder each other was the correct response.) (here is the differing treatment of different classes referred to above)
The emerging middle classes, such as the rising commercial bourgeoisie grown rich from slavery and trade, obviously wanted to join this prestigious social club, so began mimicking the politeness and educating their children in it. The concept was so successful that it filtered in some diluted sense well down the ranks of the middle classes into the working class (at least the "better sort" of working class).
This whole mode of social interaction was very strong through the 18th and 19th centuries. It was eroded during the 20th century through the social mixing of the world wars and emerging democracy, female emancipation, widespread education and egalitarianism that followed. However, echoes of it remain today, most strongly in the privately educated upper-middle classes, and more widely in the conflict avoidance and lack of direct approach to dispute .... passive aggressive behaviour is part of that. This is probably a core demographic for mumsnet.

AnonymousStudentParent · 16/01/2025 14:04

@BeAzureAnt Nobody owns a thread but, as the person that started this thread, I have as great a claim to comment on it (as opposed to replying to posters) as anyone. I am slightly taken aback by your post. The most passive aggressive poster by far was you. Some posters were constructive and polite (which doesn't preclude them posting in self-defence when attacked, both actively or passively by other posters, or making points that were not in agreement with my position). Other posters were outright aggressive (trolls).

Are you really lacking in self-awareness to that extent?

OP posts: