Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

Thank you! It sounds as if you've done a great job too. We are very supportive parents and I think it's stood them in good stead because the children are also very supportive of one another. One of DD's older brothers recently set her up with an amazing interview for an internship for when she graduates in 2026. I thought that might be a bit premature but in fact he was right and she has a verbal promise with the top company in her field, which is about as good as it gets at this stage.

It's interminable.

Nope, just asking questions.

It depends what the OP and her DD’s goals are in getting an education. If it is to make a lot of money, or get certain marks, then the business about the recommendation letter for a prestigious summer school makes a certain amount of sense. If it is for interior enrichment, then I’m scratching my head about it a little bit. It is just a letter of recommendation for one programme

And you both are still on here too, no? You must be finding it enjoyable.

It's a summer school that makes sense in a series of summer schools and extra curriculars of a subject domain area that is not currently taught in universities in Europe though there is a big movement, and funding, to change this. In particular this summer school would help DD refine her ideas for her postgraduate education.

Thanks too. Same. My eldest has helped and advised the younger two along the line as well. The three of them are all very close - squabble too of course, even though they are adults! We encouraged all their activities since they were little too and that has stood them in good stead as adults, eg DC2 has grade 8 piano and when they had an interview for the masters, the interviewer was impressed by that!

Brilliant news about the internship! I wish DC2 and DC3 were in that position! I am sure they will get there in the end but you always worry!

Ok, so she wants to go to grad school perhaps. I wondered because usually rising 2nd year students do an internship over the summer so they are in better preparation for a job. If it is a series of summer schools, is there one at a different level that might be more suited?

Not really - she's already done several and this is the precise one she wants/needs to do next. Any of the others would be more of a geographical distraction than building on her education and skills.

Post graduate education is a given - the issue is where not if.

Ok. I see. So this is the only summer school possible for her to do. Did she consider alternatives if she didn’t get in?

I don’t know what type of postgrad she wants to do, but maybe considering some alternatives and getting used to thinking in that manner might be helpful. I don’t know of many students who get into every grad school to which they apply, certainly not with funding.

Hello OP, I know it's been fraught on here at points but I tried to comment helpfully. I also said how astonished I was at the idea of a maximum of 10 minutes with your personal tutor each term - is that definite? And is this a Russell Group university?

My DC3 is in final year (non RG but I doubt that makes a difference) and says they don't even have a PT!

My elder two (RGs x3) had useless ones.

Sam Fairlamb at Royal Holloway did a study on Personal tutoring and gave a talk at it at the UKAT conference this year. I think he’s done some statistics on time spent with tutees.

Here’s the link if useful: https://www.ukat.ac.uk/events/past-conferences/ukat-annual-conference-2024/schedule

That's not good. I am at a non RG myself but we honestly make an effort with this. I can't imagine a limit like that - what if a student experiences something incredibly serious and they've already had their 10 minutes?

I’m glad to hear that you make an effort. That’s good. Frankly, I suspect most PTs give more than 10 minutes if it is serious. I don’t think if a student is signalling suicide or a personal crisis, the PT is there with a stopwatch and then kicks them out of the office. As I said, check out Sam’s work. For all the accusations about PTs being useless/lazy/sexist, etc, there are quite a number of academics who research this stuff pretty seriously. Most PTs are not out to sabotage students.

This conversation surely showed me that HE in this country is in real trouble. I’m also not surprised students are having MH problems with all the pressure they are undergoing to achieve and to meet parental expectations. Wowzers. That’s one of the reason’s the wellbeing centres are so oversubscribed.

I hope that students realise there are always alternatives in case their original plan doesn’t work out. Sometimes, things not working out can be a blessing. That’s what makes life really interesting.

So she is paying this institution a lot of money for the virtually nonexistent personal tutor to write her a bad reference? I would be livid. Particularly as she has done well on her course. If he couldn’t write something positive he should have refused to do it. Employers who write bad references for no reason can be sued. Same should apply to tutors.

Employers who write bad references for no reason can be sued. Same should apply to tutors.

this made me chuckle.

Don’t be silly 😆

The use of the word ‘betrayed’ is rather dramatic don’t you think? She hasn’t got the reference she was expecting, that’s nothing to do with ‘carelessness’, it’s tough but not the end of the world. Maybe the PT doesn’t see your DD as you see her?

Have you or dd actually seen the reference? If not then I think it's hard to judge this. It could well be your dd has got entirely the wrong end of the stick somewhere along the line.

Apart from the content of the letter, the PT was emailed in their leave period and responded by submitting a reference on time. They could have been well within their rights to say they were on leave mid December-start of term and ignore the request.

So until the content is confirmed the PT has done a good job in my eyes..

To dip back in briefly, that’s what my DS experienced at a RG university.

I just read this thread and found it really uncomfortable. I think it is your use of terms like "devastating" for what is an inconvenient but eminently survivable set-back.

If you encourage your daughter to think of events like this as "devastating", how will she cope if and when something genuinely "devastating" occurs in her life.

Our children cannot always have everything they want. They must learn to endure disappointment. We do them now favour when we magnify it into some major trauma.

Teach her resilience and a sense of proportion. If either of you are truly "devastated" by this, there is a lot of self work to do.

Good luck!

Sorry for all the typos there. Hopefully you see my point, though.

I’m beginning to think this smacks of a demanding student and parent. The summer school is to make the DD look good for the postgrad course which she WILL take, That study doesn’t seem to be hugely related to the first degree. So the summer school is a competitive bonus to make the DD loook better than everyone else. It all seems a bit fog eat dog in terms of getting a place and scrambling to get ahead of others. I’m not sure what the role of the PT is in any of this somewhat out of control ambition. It’s this attitude that leads to being “devastated”.

I assume the uni has a policy of open references so it could be viewed.

The issue @TizerorFizz raised of an open reference is interesting. I have no idea what policies are in that regard. For PG study I can think of only one student who declined to waive confidentiality, and he was weak. Usually confidential letters count for more.

However,@AnonymousStudentParent , she gave me a novel idea. How on earth did the topic come up between DD and her PT to begin with?. Enquiring about the contents of a letter written on one’s behalf is most improper. If the PT brought it up, even in response to a question like ‘do you need anything more from me?’ perhaps it was a misplaced attempt at teasing that went badly wrong. That makes more sense to me than anything else I can think if, given everything you’ve said about your DD’s academic record, how well they get along, etc.

@poetryandwine Where I worked (a long time ago now) references given for employees seeking a new job could be viewed by that employee. Some places may not allow this but I’m not up to speed with legislation that gives employee rights to see info held on themselves. All I can say is that employees had rights where I worked. This could be the same at the university here?

Hi there,
Just making out presence felt a bit here, we're certainly pleased to see that the thread has got back on track.