Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

Are recommenders not allowed to write bad references? Do they have to lie?

That's what I thought

Why didn't you complain?

Academic letters of reference are certainly confidential though I am not sure whether that is law or the strictest of conventions and information does slip out.

A while back the Germans (I think it was) instituted a policy of removing formal confidentiality from letters of reference for academic promotion and they rapidly ceased to provide any content.

It is too bad because without letters about unappreciated gemstones, people won’t take a chance on them.

Unless the letter was libelous, I'd have a hard time thinking that the employee could do a lot. What happens in practice, is a lot of employers, particularly HR, just confirm dates of employment and role to protect themselves. When my university had a voluntary severance programme, they provided letters for people so they could get employment elsewhere.

So, we could do that at universities. Student received this degree classificaiton here and this degree. Nothing more about their abilities or suitabilities for a programme. That would stem complaints and cut down on academic workload. Another alternative is say we only want the top 2-3 students in total marks for this programme, but that metric is probably not too helpful. But what I suspect will happen as there is fiercer competition for professional jobs is it will end up like was in the past--informal network of the wealthy making decisions for significant posts. All the summer schools and extracurriculars will not stand up to the interests and networks of the top. They might appoint a few loyalists to promote their interests, particularly in finance, consulting, or technology who will be "rewarded" with a middle class lifestyle.

This whole thread is all a symptom of elite overproduction. The work of Peter Turchin is salutary here and worth a look if you haven't looked at it. Throw in climate change, and it is going to be one rough ride.

It is too bad because without letters about unappreciated gemstones, people won’t take a chance on them.

Yes, it also entrenches elite privilege. The ability to rise in social class via education is beginning to cease.

Ok. Do you keep track of audience numbers for different kinds of and lengths of threads to optimise income?

or…. the student

Now that would be an interesting thread!

Indeed. Mumsnet is like any other social media. They want eyes on the screen.

I'm also sure a good slanging match probably raises audience numbers. People like to get out the popcorn and watch.

This is getting ridiculous. Betrayed? Sabotage? Devastated? It's summer school, not an application to get a new kidney.

Useful to know @NewFriendlyLadybird . OP hasn't responded yet but my guess is that this is a Russell Group university. Other bits of information like the mention of her daughter being taught by various PhD teaching assistants support this.

I've asked twice about it because of the persistent idolising of the Russell Group by many posters on here as the type of university they want their kids to go to. This is what you should be prepared for. Teaching is often done by staff in precarious employment: I'm not questioning their expertise but their working conditions mean they'll have little time to spend on your children's work. Student support is likely to be patchy for similar reasons. Sloppy personal tutoring of the kind described here will be more of a risk because it isn't prioritised. Newer universities are likely to be different on these points because they play to their teaching and student support strengths. I'm sure people will be able to give examples of mistakes from newer universities too: I'm not saying they don't happen. I am saying: be aware of things like this if you feel there's no downside to a place at a RG university.

I believe references have to be factual. So for example he said she was too young but the facts point to her being the correct age. So what he said was damaging and not based on evidence. This is why many employers just stick to dates of employment these days. What he has done is dash off an opinion, a damaging and negative one, possibly without even knowing which student he is writing about. Seeing as she is even paying to attend this university, I think she has very good grounds to complain.

The enrollment caps were also removed, and the RGs gobbled up a lot of students, sometimes beyond their capacity to handle it.

This is why many employers just stick to dates of employment these days.

Yes, I noted that upthread, and other posters noted the effects of such a system. I mean the OP/her DD could try to get the PT sacked, because they don't agree with the recommendation. Maybe from all the hoopla on here, people would be really happy about that, don't know.

I didn't see the letter as particularly damaging and negative, and we don't have the full information, just what the mum of the student told us. The reference may have been honest, just clumsily written. It certainly would be more useful to an assessment panel than degree classification and dates of attendance. I guess people could select students based on stellar attendance records, or I don't know, ask for a ranking based on marks and say...we are only interested in the top 10, etc.

They used to post the lists of degree classifications after exams at Oxbridge. All the student knew where they stood. Now, of course that violates GDPR. But I wonder if this is going to be future practice to select students, just done more privately. It would save on workload, and would play into the metrics culture at universities.

Yes but the newer unis need to do this! They have to hand hold a lot more. They are often working with CCC grades and they want them to get firsts. Of course that takes a different type of lecturing and ethos. It’s not true all these unis are better either in terms of getting DC into work. Employers don’t exclude RG students believing others are superior. Threat and assess and make their own decisions.

I think the OP said DD has an internship organised by a relative. So why this letter is so vital I’m not sure. She clearly has advantages already in not having to compete for an internship.

I do know lots of employers don’t give references now but I was talking about teaching. Not sure if references still matter, but they did! To cross reference with application.

It’s still interesting to know what right a student has to see info held on them by a uni. A letter of reference would be info personal to them I would have thought, and it’s not a published list.

My DD hasn't had any problems on her course and so, yes, she hasn't attempted to ask for more than her 10' per term slot (which sometimes gets eaten into by other students because the PT is running late). I haven't thought about it very much but it seems as if the PT's role is more about checking that students don't need help from other parties (welfare officers, librarians, student support etc) and have made properly thought out decisions on their module choices, summer internships etc. TBH the students on DD's course need a lot of parental support - she was by far the most independent of our children when she started university and took to living in halls etc like a duck to water but whether it's the nature of her course or less PT support she needs her parents more than her older siblings do with actual course related things. One of her older siblings used to see his PT for about an hour a week - they got on like a house on fire which is lovely and the PT talked to us at length at graduation and clearly it was a mutual thing. I can't see that happening for DD, yet she is by a long shot more independent and extraverted and able to talk to people than her sibling.

Oh I know. I worked for a while at Oxbridge when younger, and then at a post 92. There is a lot of pastoral care generally.

I never said that RGs are automatically better, but I do think it is safe to say they are perceived as better by most people. There are specific programmes that post-92s have that have good pipelines into employment. I acknowledge that. However, the power of the RG brand name is there for sure, no?

When you mention the internship...that's right. I mentioned upthread that elite power structures will increasingly take care of their own and social mobility via ability and education is going to get more difficult.

There are some applications where the student waives their right to see the letter. Same for fellowships for academics. Those tend to carry more weight, for now.

But it is just going to take some litigious parents/students to end recommendations beyondmarks/degree classifications. This system will favour the elites who can invest/pull strings to get the opportunities for their children. The ones without the riches and with the ability will suffer. Was it ever thus.

I've just done an MA at a non-RG university (my BA is from one but I'm a mature student so went for proximity as much as anything else) and it was exactly the same there. Staff layoffs meant PhD students stepping up as teachers, and often teaching very big classes. I got 10 mins with my tutor twice a semester (officially - mine actually did loads more because she was fantastic, but she didn't have to). I loved my course but coming from the private sector, the sloppy way universities are run is pretty shocking.

It's a bit of a separate issue but I really question how universities can justify charging £9K a year for what's clearly a thrown-together-as-best-as-resources-will-allow course. That's a lot of money - £200 per seminar - for not much. Yes universities are expensive to run that's not the students' fault. Universities exist to teach, not just to charge students for a bit of paper saying they've got a BA/MA/PhD. And the fees are going up! It's a joke tbh.

TBF here, we tend to spend more time with the tutees who need us most. An outgoing student who gets along with everyone and is doing well in their studies may not want or need to see their tutor outside of the periodic meetings.

This is guidance from the university of Edinburgh. So definitely could be viewed by the student. Note the guidance though.

Congratulations on finishing your MA.

The last tuition rise from £9000 to £9250 was in 2017. UG tuition loses money for the universities...it doesn't cover the expenses. Why? The UK government is too skint to invest in higher education as countries on the continent have done...that's why the UK the model that universities compete against each other as independent businesses. That way, when things go wrong, the universities can be blamed, rather than people questioning why the government doesn't think it is important to invest in HE as a social good.

It could go back to the way it was before, and only those who passed the 11 plus got in with a full grant. That model was economically sustainable. Fewer people went to university, and they were not seen as businesses and as all about employability.

Yup, they do not want to get sued. So, really a template recommendation would with just marks and predicted degree outcome is going to be the future. I'm pretty sure there are academics who just write bland nothingness to cover themselves.

She's got a plan B to Z! Always does. But the other summer schools haven't opened their applications yet - and this particular one is definitely her number one choice because it teaches very specific skills that she really wants to acquire. She needs to work too during the summer and it's always a bit of a headache at this time in the year scenario-planning on the basis of a lot of contingencies but it always works out in the end.

This thread must have been your full time job yesterday OP