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Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Devastated DD - awful reference

955 replies

AnonymousStudentParent · 15/01/2025 13:38

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

OP posts:
MaryWhitehouseExperienced · 15/01/2025 19:21

It isn't up to him to judge whether she is old or qualified enough. The institution will make that decision for themselves. His role is simply to describe what he knows about your DD and perhaps to state how those qualities and skills are transferable to the summer school.

NewFriendlyLadybird · 15/01/2025 19:28

redstroll · 15/01/2025 19:15

This was a poorly run course from start to finish by the sounds of it

I don’t disagree. He enjoyed the academic side and of course all the other aspects of being at university, but it was nothing well thought through.

TellYourSugargliderISaidHi · 15/01/2025 19:40

SereneFish · 15/01/2025 14:16

Then at least she should have said "Can we discuss this when we next meet."

I know you feel protective and defensive of her but she's an adult now, not your little girl, and the best thing she can do is reflect on what she should have done differently and learn from it.

I know you feel protective and defensive of her but she's an adult now, not your little girl, and the best thing she can do is reflect on what she should have done differently and learn from it.

I somewhat disagree with this, even as adults some way through our careers we can look to mentors and peers for advice, guidance and broadening our horizons. There’s standing on your own two feet but that doesn’t mean that asking for help or guidance isn’t reasonable. Especially when she is so young.

Peaceandquietandacuppa · 15/01/2025 19:42

AnonymousStudentParent · 15/01/2025 15:37

No it has to be an academic from her current institution. She actually would have preferred to ask someone from her last summer school (related to the new summer school) but that wasn't allowed.

Could it not be a teacher of her current best performing class? She’d be more memorable to them surely?

TellYourSugargliderISaidHi · 15/01/2025 19:43

AnonymousStudentParent · 15/01/2025 14:39

References should be based in factual evidence not personal opinion.

I agree with you, did he actually say the words, ‘nice’ and ‘take a chance’? Because if so, that seems pretty unprofessional. I doubt this is his first time giving these types of references. I do think that he should have said no if he felt he couldn’t give her a positive one.

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 19:45

NewFriendlyLadybird · 15/01/2025 18:58

So?

That’s not the tutees’ problem. They were assigned a personal tutor and told that he would be on hand to support their academic progress. He wasn’t.

Undoubtedly the university has accepted many more undergraduates than it can reasonably cope with; and I dare say it’s a job that few academics want to do. But why should the students suffer?

This is long, so bear with me. I don’t think it necessarily is a job academics don’t like to do, I suspect it is a time issue really.

So, let’s say that you have 50 tutees, and you have to meet with them individually one hour per term (this was about what we had to do). So it is an afternoon a week for 14 weeks per term. (3.5 hours a week or 50/14)

Let’s say then you have 7-9 undergraduate dissertation students, and you have to meet with them an hour every other week. So that’s another afternoon a week (assuming 3.5-4.5 hours per week) So now we are up to day a week of advising with the personal tutoring.

Let’s add in another 3-5 MA students and a PhD student that you meet with every two weeks. So that’s about another 1/2 day a week as sometimes these sessions take a little longer. So now it is 1.5 days a week in advising.

Let’s get to teaching. I had three modules a term I convened, so 9 hours of lecture, and then another three seminars. That’s 12 hours of teaching a week, or 1.5 days. We are now up to three days a week.

Preparation for lectures/seminars. You get an hour prep time per seminar/lecture, so that’s another 1.5 days. So now we are up to 4.5 days a week. Of course, if the module is new to you, you will be working many weekends as a decent lecture can take a day to write, but we’ll set that aside for now.

Committee meetings/school meetings/training/email…3-4 hours a week. So that’s your work week during the 14 weeks of term

There are 52 weeks a year, 7 weeks hols, and 28 weeks of term.

So 17 weeks left.

What is missing? Research/grant applications. It was expected we did an article of 4 star quality a year for REF and one grant application. We were also supposed to have a major book in the pipeline.

A article takes about five work weeks in my field to accomplish as there might be a research trip. Sustained work on a book, about a month a year. A grant, 3-4 weeks to prepare
So let’s say 3 months or 12 weeks.

Marking. I taught about 150 students a term. They would do an essay and an exam. 300 assessments a term, or 600 assessments a year, and about 15 minutes for each one (that is what we were allocated in workload). That’s 150 hours a year or 4 weeks of marking. 2-3 MA thesis a year…those took 2-3 hours to go through, that’s another 9-10 hours. A PhD thesis a year, a day to mark. So round about 4.5 weeks of marking.

So that’s about your year.

If you are 100 percent efficient, never get sick, your computer works perfectly, never have any new modules, you always have a good idea for an article or grant. you can just about do it. But, then what if you get a grant? Then the wheels come off.

My institution if we were very lucky gave us 2-3 hours a week teaching release to run it, which was about 1/4 of the time needed to do it. So you worked Saturdays or over holidays.

Or you have a new module? Well, it is about a day prep time for a good lecture and seminar. And of course these have to be loaded on Moodle, you have to caption every image in every slide for disabled student and make sure the entire module is ready by the first week of term. Students get anxious and they work a lot, so fair enough, they have to know what to expect every week of the term ahead of time. Guess when you do this…during your holiday allocation or weekends.

Our institution also wanted us to do public outreach, so a talk or two a year, or an afternoon at a secondary school for recruitment. Then we were supposed to do Open Days….that could be 3-4 Saturdays a term, depending on the rota. There was no Time Off in Lieu.

This is at a post-92. There was little to no PA help for much of anything, and our computers were replaced every 7-8 years or so. Offices for one were shared by three, so we had to coordinate to meet with students as there could be privacy issues. And of course with the massive MH issues facing students, we also were supposed to be alerted to that. If you had a student that really needed your help, then other things didn’t get done, and you’d be pulled up for it and told to be more efficient.

So, that may be why personal tutoring wasn’t as extensive as you would have liked it to be. Sorry about that, but if tuitions stay at the 2017 level, the international student market has dried up, there are mass redundancies, and a higher staff-student ratio as a result, this might be why.

Bupster · 15/01/2025 19:46

Honestly OP, most personal tutors simply don't know their tutees well enough to draft them more than a boilerplate reference and certainly don't have the time to do extensive (or any) research. If his name has not been submitted as a referee, she would do much better to speak to someone who has actually taught her, and who she trusts and knows a bit better. I feel both of you have got a bit tied up in knots about this. She should write back to him and say she's changed her mind about asking him to be a referee as she's looking for someone who can support the application, and just move on.

Mirabai · 15/01/2025 19:48

gmgnts · 15/01/2025 17:39

I am a former academic who has written many, many references and I am shocked (but not surprised) by this. I always take great care over references, and over the course of many years can only think of one 'bad' reference. (That was where the student had no choice but to ask me and I felt that I had no choice but to give a poor reference (application to medical school and he was beyond unsuitable)). Reference writing is one of the core duties of a college/university tutor and one I'm always glad to do, supporting students
on the next step of their career. But I'm not surprised to hear about this sorry tale. There are too many - mostly male - academics who are slapdash and careless and sometimes worse in their dealings with students. It's a power play thing in some cases and in other cases they simply couldn't care less about their students. Thinking of you, my former PhD supervisor! I hope DD can find someone else to give her a reference who will take the appropriate care and do proper due diligence for her.

There are a fair number of academics who go into academe to research and write and see teaching and supervising students as a pia sideshow and/or they’re just not very good at it.

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 19:53

Mirabai · 15/01/2025 19:48

There are a fair number of academics who go into academe to research and write and see teaching and supervising students as a pia sideshow and/or they’re just not very good at it.

I could say this of a lot of people in a lot of jobs. They dial it in. The issue is that academics are asked to be good at all of it, all the time, with not a lot of resources.

I think the ivory tower stereotype has a lot to answer for.

Trolleysaregoodforemployment · 15/01/2025 19:55

wigsonthegreenandhatsforthelifting · 15/01/2025 15:46

God you're all heart!!!!

It not about having not having a heart. The most sought after companies and institutions are pretty ruthless in their selection processes. The PT is unlikely to be the first or last obstacle the OP's DD will come across better it happened now so that she can learn to manage or work around them. Missing the summer school will be upsetting but missing a job will be worse.

Breadcat24 · 15/01/2025 19:57

maybe ask for a different personal tutor
especially if you have one like the above that has a raft of reasons why they do not understand that your daughter is an individual

Mirabai · 15/01/2025 19:58

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 19:53

I could say this of a lot of people in a lot of jobs. They dial it in. The issue is that academics are asked to be good at all of it, all the time, with not a lot of resources.

I think the ivory tower stereotype has a lot to answer for.

Yes that fair.

Doesn’t excuse this poor quality reference though. If he’s time strapped then just write something blandly supportive and impersonal.

OCDmama · 15/01/2025 20:06

I'm not sure why you're getting such a rough ride here.

Firstly, everyone knows you don't give out a negative reference. End of.

Secondly, he's being a shit PT. Fuck all these arguments about his workload, he's basically sabotaged your daughter academically - why should she just accept this because he's got a lot on his plate? How do we know he does anything satisfactorily and isn't just coasting?

Your DD followed procedure. If he had any qualms about her ability he should have raised them with her instead of putting that in the bloody reference.

I'd suggest that your DD raise this with her tutor, but also the course administrator. It really doesn't sit right with me that he's affected her academic career at all like this. I'd be expecting him to rectify this situation.

Andthebellsringout · 15/01/2025 20:11

AnonymousStudentParent · 15/01/2025 17:26

There was a final presentation with a jury to which families and many other people were invited - there were hundreds of us. It would have been weird not to attend.

Sounds fairly unusual as summer schools at undergraduate level and above wouldn’t usually have families in the vicinity as the student would travel to attend them. The accommodation would be just for participants etc. I take it you weren’t planning on accompanying her to this one too?

@AnonymousStudentParent What’s your DD decided to do now? Continue with her submission and accept the reference that has already been submitted? If she’s keen and as good a fit as you say then I’m sure she has a good chance at a place. If not there’s always next year.

Andthebellsringout · 15/01/2025 20:15

Also has your daughter actually read the reference as it may be more balanced or positive than it sounds from their casual conversation.

Allergictoironing · 15/01/2025 20:18

Please can people read at least the OP's posts before suggesting something that a) has been suggested umpteen times already and/or b) the OP has already stated is contradictory to the institution's policy!

  • Policy states she goes to her PT at least in the first place, so no she would have been going against this policy to ask a different person for the reference in the first place.
  • The reference wasn't poor regarding the ability of the OP's DD, it was in fact inaccurate as it states the student is too young for the course which according to the fact sheet about the course isn't true, and that the student is underqualified, which again she isn't according to the course details.
  • No she couldn't have seen her PT face to face when asking for the reference, the PT is only available to see her for 10 minutes a term and presumably she had had her 10 whole minutes allocation for the winter term already.
  • The student did follow exactly the policies on requesting a reference. The only difference was that she supplied additional information to remind the PT that she had done certain other things, which was ignored by the PT
NewFriendlyLadybird · 15/01/2025 20:31

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 19:45

This is long, so bear with me. I don’t think it necessarily is a job academics don’t like to do, I suspect it is a time issue really.

So, let’s say that you have 50 tutees, and you have to meet with them individually one hour per term (this was about what we had to do). So it is an afternoon a week for 14 weeks per term. (3.5 hours a week or 50/14)

Let’s say then you have 7-9 undergraduate dissertation students, and you have to meet with them an hour every other week. So that’s another afternoon a week (assuming 3.5-4.5 hours per week) So now we are up to day a week of advising with the personal tutoring.

Let’s add in another 3-5 MA students and a PhD student that you meet with every two weeks. So that’s about another 1/2 day a week as sometimes these sessions take a little longer. So now it is 1.5 days a week in advising.

Let’s get to teaching. I had three modules a term I convened, so 9 hours of lecture, and then another three seminars. That’s 12 hours of teaching a week, or 1.5 days. We are now up to three days a week.

Preparation for lectures/seminars. You get an hour prep time per seminar/lecture, so that’s another 1.5 days. So now we are up to 4.5 days a week. Of course, if the module is new to you, you will be working many weekends as a decent lecture can take a day to write, but we’ll set that aside for now.

Committee meetings/school meetings/training/email…3-4 hours a week. So that’s your work week during the 14 weeks of term

There are 52 weeks a year, 7 weeks hols, and 28 weeks of term.

So 17 weeks left.

What is missing? Research/grant applications. It was expected we did an article of 4 star quality a year for REF and one grant application. We were also supposed to have a major book in the pipeline.

A article takes about five work weeks in my field to accomplish as there might be a research trip. Sustained work on a book, about a month a year. A grant, 3-4 weeks to prepare
So let’s say 3 months or 12 weeks.

Marking. I taught about 150 students a term. They would do an essay and an exam. 300 assessments a term, or 600 assessments a year, and about 15 minutes for each one (that is what we were allocated in workload). That’s 150 hours a year or 4 weeks of marking. 2-3 MA thesis a year…those took 2-3 hours to go through, that’s another 9-10 hours. A PhD thesis a year, a day to mark. So round about 4.5 weeks of marking.

So that’s about your year.

If you are 100 percent efficient, never get sick, your computer works perfectly, never have any new modules, you always have a good idea for an article or grant. you can just about do it. But, then what if you get a grant? Then the wheels come off.

My institution if we were very lucky gave us 2-3 hours a week teaching release to run it, which was about 1/4 of the time needed to do it. So you worked Saturdays or over holidays.

Or you have a new module? Well, it is about a day prep time for a good lecture and seminar. And of course these have to be loaded on Moodle, you have to caption every image in every slide for disabled student and make sure the entire module is ready by the first week of term. Students get anxious and they work a lot, so fair enough, they have to know what to expect every week of the term ahead of time. Guess when you do this…during your holiday allocation or weekends.

Our institution also wanted us to do public outreach, so a talk or two a year, or an afternoon at a secondary school for recruitment. Then we were supposed to do Open Days….that could be 3-4 Saturdays a term, depending on the rota. There was no Time Off in Lieu.

This is at a post-92. There was little to no PA help for much of anything, and our computers were replaced every 7-8 years or so. Offices for one were shared by three, so we had to coordinate to meet with students as there could be privacy issues. And of course with the massive MH issues facing students, we also were supposed to be alerted to that. If you had a student that really needed your help, then other things didn’t get done, and you’d be pulled up for it and told to be more efficient.

So, that may be why personal tutoring wasn’t as extensive as you would have liked it to be. Sorry about that, but if tuitions stay at the 2017 level, the international student market has dried up, there are mass redundancies, and a higher staff-student ratio as a result, this might be why.

No I understand the constraints that you are working under, and I think you’re taking my comments about PTs personally. It’s definitely not you I’m talking about.

But why is it unreasonable for students to expect the support that they are promised when universities are doing everything they can to make them apply?

If PTs don’t have the time or the headspace to do their jobs, university management should rethink the role. Better no PTs than PTs who can’t remember their tutees and only meet them for half an hour over the course of a year.

And I know fees haven’t gone up and international students are down but that’s no more the students’ fault than it is yours. And when students are being charged fees but are on the rough end of marking strikes, PTs with no time or attention, and an overall sausage-factory feel to their undergraduate experience, it’s little surprise that some may be wondering what the hell they’ve been paying for.

It’s a systemic problem with many losers, but students are losing out.

wigsonthegreenandhatsforthelifting · 15/01/2025 20:39

zone999 · 15/01/2025 18:50

Thanks for this, I've seen it and decided not to come back to my teaching related admin this evening after all, having already worked on teaching and related admin for 11 hours today, had lunch at my desk and just stopped to feed my children their dinner,
Clearly my work is not respected so indeed, the rest of my students can wait a bit longer for their feedback and results because I apparently hate teaching and students. FFS

Edited

That's mature!

JammySlag · 15/01/2025 20:44

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 19:45

This is long, so bear with me. I don’t think it necessarily is a job academics don’t like to do, I suspect it is a time issue really.

So, let’s say that you have 50 tutees, and you have to meet with them individually one hour per term (this was about what we had to do). So it is an afternoon a week for 14 weeks per term. (3.5 hours a week or 50/14)

Let’s say then you have 7-9 undergraduate dissertation students, and you have to meet with them an hour every other week. So that’s another afternoon a week (assuming 3.5-4.5 hours per week) So now we are up to day a week of advising with the personal tutoring.

Let’s add in another 3-5 MA students and a PhD student that you meet with every two weeks. So that’s about another 1/2 day a week as sometimes these sessions take a little longer. So now it is 1.5 days a week in advising.

Let’s get to teaching. I had three modules a term I convened, so 9 hours of lecture, and then another three seminars. That’s 12 hours of teaching a week, or 1.5 days. We are now up to three days a week.

Preparation for lectures/seminars. You get an hour prep time per seminar/lecture, so that’s another 1.5 days. So now we are up to 4.5 days a week. Of course, if the module is new to you, you will be working many weekends as a decent lecture can take a day to write, but we’ll set that aside for now.

Committee meetings/school meetings/training/email…3-4 hours a week. So that’s your work week during the 14 weeks of term

There are 52 weeks a year, 7 weeks hols, and 28 weeks of term.

So 17 weeks left.

What is missing? Research/grant applications. It was expected we did an article of 4 star quality a year for REF and one grant application. We were also supposed to have a major book in the pipeline.

A article takes about five work weeks in my field to accomplish as there might be a research trip. Sustained work on a book, about a month a year. A grant, 3-4 weeks to prepare
So let’s say 3 months or 12 weeks.

Marking. I taught about 150 students a term. They would do an essay and an exam. 300 assessments a term, or 600 assessments a year, and about 15 minutes for each one (that is what we were allocated in workload). That’s 150 hours a year or 4 weeks of marking. 2-3 MA thesis a year…those took 2-3 hours to go through, that’s another 9-10 hours. A PhD thesis a year, a day to mark. So round about 4.5 weeks of marking.

So that’s about your year.

If you are 100 percent efficient, never get sick, your computer works perfectly, never have any new modules, you always have a good idea for an article or grant. you can just about do it. But, then what if you get a grant? Then the wheels come off.

My institution if we were very lucky gave us 2-3 hours a week teaching release to run it, which was about 1/4 of the time needed to do it. So you worked Saturdays or over holidays.

Or you have a new module? Well, it is about a day prep time for a good lecture and seminar. And of course these have to be loaded on Moodle, you have to caption every image in every slide for disabled student and make sure the entire module is ready by the first week of term. Students get anxious and they work a lot, so fair enough, they have to know what to expect every week of the term ahead of time. Guess when you do this…during your holiday allocation or weekends.

Our institution also wanted us to do public outreach, so a talk or two a year, or an afternoon at a secondary school for recruitment. Then we were supposed to do Open Days….that could be 3-4 Saturdays a term, depending on the rota. There was no Time Off in Lieu.

This is at a post-92. There was little to no PA help for much of anything, and our computers were replaced every 7-8 years or so. Offices for one were shared by three, so we had to coordinate to meet with students as there could be privacy issues. And of course with the massive MH issues facing students, we also were supposed to be alerted to that. If you had a student that really needed your help, then other things didn’t get done, and you’d be pulled up for it and told to be more efficient.

So, that may be why personal tutoring wasn’t as extensive as you would have liked it to be. Sorry about that, but if tuitions stay at the 2017 level, the international student market has dried up, there are mass redundancies, and a higher staff-student ratio as a result, this might be why.

I’ve worked in academia. He could have said no and that he wasn’t suitable to be her reference as he didn’t know her well enough. Yes working in academia is an absolute clusterf*%k, but that doesn’t mean you undermine your students who ask for references in good faith.

wigsonthegreenandhatsforthelifting · 15/01/2025 20:47

Legodaisy · 15/01/2025 18:56

You are way too enmeshed and over-involved with your university-aged daughter.

When I was at uni, I would never have shared such detail with my parents. And my mum would never have been able to write such a long detailed mumsnet thread about anything I was doing…

She’s an adult, university is like a job. She should be sorting it all out herself.

Her mistake was going to a tutor she didn’t know that well for a reference, instead of asking a lecturer or seminar leader who she was closer to. But she has learned a lesson from it. No one owes you a good personal reference, no matter how detailed your request is, that’s why you should pick someone you’re friendly with and who you trust.

What a crock!!! Such utter nonsense. Just because the OP has posted the question doesn't mean that her DD won't be the one to sort it out.

I would have shared with my mum but she wouldn't have been able to help particularly as she hadn't been to uni herself.

What about if OP's DD was following instructions to ask the PT??

I once had occasion to pull a young woman in her 20s up on her behaviour in the workplace. I did so politely and with respect. Her mother phoned me to give me an earful!! I firmly and equally politely put her back in her box. Now that is over-involvement, not this!

I would like to think my children could and would come to me for support with whatever issues they have in their lives! I will always be here for them!!

wigsonthegreenandhatsforthelifting · 15/01/2025 20:50

redstroll · 15/01/2025 19:05

The second one was marginally better, but the first one was utterly useless and insulting to boot.

to be clear @NewFriendlyLadybird …. you weren’t actually sitting beside your son during this 1-2-1 with his tutor?!

What a response!!!!🙄

wigsonthegreenandhatsforthelifting · 15/01/2025 20:52

redstroll · 15/01/2025 19:18

it’s the fact the Op thinks he did this because he had other students he wanted to get on to the course more ie intentionally set out to fuck up DD’s application, indicates to me that this OP is…. spinning

Edited

I don't know how you presume to know that it isn't.

TellYourSugargliderISaidHi · 15/01/2025 21:06

Looksgood · 15/01/2025 15:15

And among that type, this sort of casual gatekeeping is not unusual.

Yep. The dismissive ‘nice girl’ type vibe of the potential reference screams that.

Looksgood · 15/01/2025 22:01

TellYourSugargliderISaidHi · 15/01/2025 21:06

Yep. The dismissive ‘nice girl’ type vibe of the potential reference screams that.

Nice girl who works hard.

I wouldn't say we have enough information to be sure, but that is the classic faint praise women get where sexism is at play.

And why does it matter whether she's nice? I hope he didn't really put it that way.

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:01

wigsonthegreenandhatsforthelifting · 15/01/2025 20:47

What a crock!!! Such utter nonsense. Just because the OP has posted the question doesn't mean that her DD won't be the one to sort it out.

I would have shared with my mum but she wouldn't have been able to help particularly as she hadn't been to uni herself.

What about if OP's DD was following instructions to ask the PT??

I once had occasion to pull a young woman in her 20s up on her behaviour in the workplace. I did so politely and with respect. Her mother phoned me to give me an earful!! I firmly and equally politely put her back in her box. Now that is over-involvement, not this!

I would like to think my children could and would come to me for support with whatever issues they have in their lives! I will always be here for them!!

The student is an adult. The OP is way, way too invested in a recommendation letter. The letter says…nope too young/immature and not qualified enough for this course. Maybe the PT was right…I mean the DD is getting her mom embroiled in this rather than figuring it out for herself. The only person’s word we have is the DD’s mum…hardly an unbiased source.