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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

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Devastated DD - awful reference

955 replies

AnonymousStudentParent · 15/01/2025 13:38

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

OP posts:
SimmeryAxe · 15/01/2025 22:03

I have read the whole thread, and there have been comments relevant to this, but I still go back to the OP’s comment:

Precisely - my DD forwarded the information about the summer school to her PT by email so he could read it and she was fully expecting him to ask her for the CV and PS she was using (hence her doing them in very good time over Christmas).

If she thought he needed sight of her CV and PS, why didn’t she include them with her request for a reference? Did it include the summer school information or was that in a separate email?

Too late now, but perhaps helpful for the future: make it easy for the referee by including everything relevant in the initial request, so the reference could be dealt straight away.

Edited to add: and don’t request the reference until you are able to include the CV and PS. If she wrote them over Christmas and She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference
it sounds as if this is what happened.

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:04

Looksgood · 15/01/2025 22:01

Nice girl who works hard.

I wouldn't say we have enough information to be sure, but that is the classic faint praise women get where sexism is at play.

And why does it matter whether she's nice? I hope he didn't really put it that way.

Yes, when there is failure, it is always some other force. It isn’t always sexism. Sometime the student is simply not up to snuff. Sometimes, male or female, they are diligent workers, but they don’t have the talent. Working hard is fine, but if you don’t have the aptitude for something, and another applicant does, you are not going to get that opportunity.

Parents don’t like to hear that.

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:04

SimmeryAxe · 15/01/2025 22:03

I have read the whole thread, and there have been comments relevant to this, but I still go back to the OP’s comment:

Precisely - my DD forwarded the information about the summer school to her PT by email so he could read it and she was fully expecting him to ask her for the CV and PS she was using (hence her doing them in very good time over Christmas).

If she thought he needed sight of her CV and PS, why didn’t she include them with her request for a reference? Did it include the summer school information or was that in a separate email?

Too late now, but perhaps helpful for the future: make it easy for the referee by including everything relevant in the initial request, so the reference could be dealt straight away.

Edited to add: and don’t request the reference until you are able to include the CV and PS. If she wrote them over Christmas and She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference
it sounds as if this is what happened.

Edited

Yep, and don’t ask over Christmas holiday.

Tommarvolo · 15/01/2025 22:05

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 19:45

This is long, so bear with me. I don’t think it necessarily is a job academics don’t like to do, I suspect it is a time issue really.

So, let’s say that you have 50 tutees, and you have to meet with them individually one hour per term (this was about what we had to do). So it is an afternoon a week for 14 weeks per term. (3.5 hours a week or 50/14)

Let’s say then you have 7-9 undergraduate dissertation students, and you have to meet with them an hour every other week. So that’s another afternoon a week (assuming 3.5-4.5 hours per week) So now we are up to day a week of advising with the personal tutoring.

Let’s add in another 3-5 MA students and a PhD student that you meet with every two weeks. So that’s about another 1/2 day a week as sometimes these sessions take a little longer. So now it is 1.5 days a week in advising.

Let’s get to teaching. I had three modules a term I convened, so 9 hours of lecture, and then another three seminars. That’s 12 hours of teaching a week, or 1.5 days. We are now up to three days a week.

Preparation for lectures/seminars. You get an hour prep time per seminar/lecture, so that’s another 1.5 days. So now we are up to 4.5 days a week. Of course, if the module is new to you, you will be working many weekends as a decent lecture can take a day to write, but we’ll set that aside for now.

Committee meetings/school meetings/training/email…3-4 hours a week. So that’s your work week during the 14 weeks of term

There are 52 weeks a year, 7 weeks hols, and 28 weeks of term.

So 17 weeks left.

What is missing? Research/grant applications. It was expected we did an article of 4 star quality a year for REF and one grant application. We were also supposed to have a major book in the pipeline.

A article takes about five work weeks in my field to accomplish as there might be a research trip. Sustained work on a book, about a month a year. A grant, 3-4 weeks to prepare
So let’s say 3 months or 12 weeks.

Marking. I taught about 150 students a term. They would do an essay and an exam. 300 assessments a term, or 600 assessments a year, and about 15 minutes for each one (that is what we were allocated in workload). That’s 150 hours a year or 4 weeks of marking. 2-3 MA thesis a year…those took 2-3 hours to go through, that’s another 9-10 hours. A PhD thesis a year, a day to mark. So round about 4.5 weeks of marking.

So that’s about your year.

If you are 100 percent efficient, never get sick, your computer works perfectly, never have any new modules, you always have a good idea for an article or grant. you can just about do it. But, then what if you get a grant? Then the wheels come off.

My institution if we were very lucky gave us 2-3 hours a week teaching release to run it, which was about 1/4 of the time needed to do it. So you worked Saturdays or over holidays.

Or you have a new module? Well, it is about a day prep time for a good lecture and seminar. And of course these have to be loaded on Moodle, you have to caption every image in every slide for disabled student and make sure the entire module is ready by the first week of term. Students get anxious and they work a lot, so fair enough, they have to know what to expect every week of the term ahead of time. Guess when you do this…during your holiday allocation or weekends.

Our institution also wanted us to do public outreach, so a talk or two a year, or an afternoon at a secondary school for recruitment. Then we were supposed to do Open Days….that could be 3-4 Saturdays a term, depending on the rota. There was no Time Off in Lieu.

This is at a post-92. There was little to no PA help for much of anything, and our computers were replaced every 7-8 years or so. Offices for one were shared by three, so we had to coordinate to meet with students as there could be privacy issues. And of course with the massive MH issues facing students, we also were supposed to be alerted to that. If you had a student that really needed your help, then other things didn’t get done, and you’d be pulled up for it and told to be more efficient.

So, that may be why personal tutoring wasn’t as extensive as you would have liked it to be. Sorry about that, but if tuitions stay at the 2017 level, the international student market has dried up, there are mass redundancies, and a higher staff-student ratio as a result, this might be why.

I agree with everything apart from it taking a few weeks for a 4* publication! I think the ones I'm working on at the moment have taken several years, mostly because of my admin duties.

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:08

Trolleysaregoodforemployment · 15/01/2025 19:55

It not about having not having a heart. The most sought after companies and institutions are pretty ruthless in their selection processes. The PT is unlikely to be the first or last obstacle the OP's DD will come across better it happened now so that she can learn to manage or work around them. Missing the summer school will be upsetting but missing a job will be worse.

YES. It is a learning process. It is part of adulthood. Have the disappointments now when the stakes are lower.

As an example, my students did presentations in classes, and group work. They generally didn’t like that, but I said, well, learning how to speak well in public now rather than trying to do it on the job is a good idea. And, you’ll have to work in a group your whole life…learn the interpersonal dynamics now. Yes, I gave them tips on how to allocate work and how to present information. We had practice runs in my office for a presentation, but “eat the frog” now in university.

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:08

Tommarvolo · 15/01/2025 22:05

I agree with everything apart from it taking a few weeks for a 4* publication! I think the ones I'm working on at the moment have taken several years, mostly because of my admin duties.

Admittedly, I’ve been doing research for 30 years, and so I had a corpus of material to draw upon, but fair enough.

Tommarvolo · 15/01/2025 22:09

Op I think the lesson for your dd here is that the rules are not always the best strategy. If you want someone to advocate and support you then you need to build trust with that person regardless what their official title is, what their official responsibilities are and what your expectations of them are.

Mirabai · 15/01/2025 22:10

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:04

Yes, when there is failure, it is always some other force. It isn’t always sexism. Sometime the student is simply not up to snuff. Sometimes, male or female, they are diligent workers, but they don’t have the talent. Working hard is fine, but if you don’t have the aptitude for something, and another applicant does, you are not going to get that opportunity.

Parents don’t like to hear that.

That’s not what he said though is it, he said underage and under-qualified. Neither of which is apparently true and the latter is for the summer school to decide.

Soontobe60 · 15/01/2025 22:10

AnonymousStudentParent · 15/01/2025 14:12

Her opportunities for discussing things face to face are rather limited (10' slot per term) and she felt it was only polite to give him advance warning by writing to him at the beginning of the Christmas holidays rather than waiting until 2 weeks before the deadline, especially since he has form for postponing scheduled appointments at the last minute.

Id be amazed if the PT responded during the christmas break tbh. He would have been well within his rights to not respond to work emails during holidays.

Looksgood · 15/01/2025 22:14

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:04

Yes, when there is failure, it is always some other force. It isn’t always sexism. Sometime the student is simply not up to snuff. Sometimes, male or female, they are diligent workers, but they don’t have the talent. Working hard is fine, but if you don’t have the aptitude for something, and another applicant does, you are not going to get that opportunity.

Parents don’t like to hear that.

That isn't what I said though - I doubt he knows anything about her academic ability since he doesn't teach her. He didn't say she wasn't strong enough. And you can write a reference and be honest about a student's strengths without making the decision for the recipient - top 10% of cohort, working at secure 2.2 level etc

I don't see why you'd start saying whether people are nice though!

Mirabai · 15/01/2025 22:16

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:08

YES. It is a learning process. It is part of adulthood. Have the disappointments now when the stakes are lower.

As an example, my students did presentations in classes, and group work. They generally didn’t like that, but I said, well, learning how to speak well in public now rather than trying to do it on the job is a good idea. And, you’ll have to work in a group your whole life…learn the interpersonal dynamics now. Yes, I gave them tips on how to allocate work and how to present information. We had practice runs in my office for a presentation, but “eat the frog” now in university.

But this isn’t the company or institution being ruthless about selection, it’s her own personal tutor in her own institution undermining her before she’s even got to the selection process.

It would be much less upsetting simply to be turned down fair and square knowing you’d put in a good application with a decent reference.

Soontobe60 · 15/01/2025 22:16

AnonymousStudentParent · 15/01/2025 15:06

Other PTs manage to remember that their students aren't working in their first language.

You’re just guessing this I suspect. How would you know?

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:16

Mirabai · 15/01/2025 19:58

Yes that fair.

Doesn’t excuse this poor quality reference though. If he’s time strapped then just write something blandly supportive and impersonal.

Maybe, but maybe the OP’s DD wasn’t suited for the summer school. We only have her mum’s opinion to go on here.

I suggested upthread (and actually tongue in cheek) that there be a template for recommendations to make one that is inoffensive when the recommender doesn’t know the student. That way parents don’t get upset, but honestly what a waste of time. And if the PT doesn’t know the student, can they be supportive of the application in all honesty?

For the PT to lie might make the parent happy but it surely doesn’t help the assessment panel very much.

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:20

Mirabai · 15/01/2025 22:16

But this isn’t the company or institution being ruthless about selection, it’s her own personal tutor in her own institution undermining her before she’s even got to the selection process.

It would be much less upsetting simply to be turned down fair and square knowing you’d put in a good application with a decent reference.

As I said upthread (cross post) we only have the mum’s opinion on here. It may very well be that the DD was not suited for the summer school and she will be turned down fair and square.

I also suspect that the DD could have taken more initiative in having a different recommender/providing the PT with more information/sorting this before the Christmas holiday.

NewFriendlyLadybird · 15/01/2025 22:23

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:01

The student is an adult. The OP is way, way too invested in a recommendation letter. The letter says…nope too young/immature and not qualified enough for this course. Maybe the PT was right…I mean the DD is getting her mom embroiled in this rather than figuring it out for herself. The only person’s word we have is the DD’s mum…hardly an unbiased source.

The DD has not ‘got her mum embroiled in this’. The mum is venting, anonymously. Nothing wrong with that.

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:23

Looksgood · 15/01/2025 22:14

That isn't what I said though - I doubt he knows anything about her academic ability since he doesn't teach her. He didn't say she wasn't strong enough. And you can write a reference and be honest about a student's strengths without making the decision for the recipient - top 10% of cohort, working at secure 2.2 level etc

I don't see why you'd start saying whether people are nice though!

From the information we had, he said she was under qualified for the summer school, but they could take a chance on her because she was nice and hard working. Some forms I have seen have asked about the student’s demeanour…do they work well with others, etc, are they pleasant/interpersonal skills. I’m not sure why ‘nice’ and hard worker is necessarily derogatory.

I have said the student is nice and works hard, both for men and women.

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:28

NewFriendlyLadybird · 15/01/2025 22:23

The DD has not ‘got her mum embroiled in this’. The mum is venting, anonymously. Nothing wrong with that.

But there is something wrong in the assumptions made about the PT and academics in general on some very limited information. To wit:

Lazy, sexist, doing a half-arsed job, only interested in sabbaticals and their research, don’t care about students, pompous…

I would have been mortified to get my parents involved in anything like this when I was at university. Way too much investment in a recommendation letter.

Mirabai · 15/01/2025 22:28

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:16

Maybe, but maybe the OP’s DD wasn’t suited for the summer school. We only have her mum’s opinion to go on here.

I suggested upthread (and actually tongue in cheek) that there be a template for recommendations to make one that is inoffensive when the recommender doesn’t know the student. That way parents don’t get upset, but honestly what a waste of time. And if the PT doesn’t know the student, can they be supportive of the application in all honesty?

For the PT to lie might make the parent happy but it surely doesn’t help the assessment panel very much.

Well he’s written two things that aren’t true, presumably from ignorance rather intentional fiction - so he doesn’t seem that concerned with honesty.

If she’s not suited for summer school that’s for the selectors to decide not him, he’s not running it. It’s perfectly possible to indicate a student is only average in a professional, respectful way as @Looksgood instances above.

wigsonthegreenandhatsforthelifting · 15/01/2025 22:30

NewFriendlyLadybird · 15/01/2025 22:23

The DD has not ‘got her mum embroiled in this’. The mum is venting, anonymously. Nothing wrong with that.

I'm totally agog at the assertions that this young woman's mother shouldn't be getting involved with this issue.

It's batshit!!

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:30

Mirabai · 15/01/2025 22:28

Well he’s written two things that aren’t true, presumably from ignorance rather intentional fiction - so he doesn’t seem that concerned with honesty.

If she’s not suited for summer school that’s for the selectors to decide not him, he’s not running it. It’s perfectly possible to indicate a student is only average in a professional, respectful way as @Looksgood instances above.

Would you write a letter of recommendation for someone you didn’t know?

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:31

wigsonthegreenandhatsforthelifting · 15/01/2025 22:30

I'm totally agog at the assertions that this young woman's mother shouldn't be getting involved with this issue.

It's batshit!!

She’s an adult, not a secondary school student. Time to grow up.

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:32

wigsonthegreenandhatsforthelifting · 15/01/2025 22:30

I'm totally agog at the assertions that this young woman's mother shouldn't be getting involved with this issue.

It's batshit!!

Oh yes…here is the passive aggressive person again. If you don’t agree with me, say it to me directly. Or should I put a laughing emoji in this, as that makes you more comfortable?

wigsonthegreenandhatsforthelifting · 15/01/2025 22:34

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:32

Oh yes…here is the passive aggressive person again. If you don’t agree with me, say it to me directly. Or should I put a laughing emoji in this, as that makes you more comfortable?

Edited

I have no desire to discuss anything with you after the horrible things you have said to me.

I will however respond as I wish to other posters. The end.

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:34

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:31

She’s an adult, not a secondary school student. Time to grow up.

And here we go again. Laughing emoji and passive aggressive bullying. Absolutely typical of someone that can’t hold an argument and is too cowardly to have an argument directly.

BeAzureAnt · 15/01/2025 22:35

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