Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

No idea. He had one one-to-one meeting per term, during which any questions he had (about anything) were fobbed off. The second one was marginally better, but the first one was utterly useless and insulting to boot.

It happens and I'm sure the people running the summer school will look at all the information. One of my kids was being interviewed for something, he hadn't seen the reference his tutor had sent in confidence. The person interviewing him said he shouldn't show him the reference but he did (don't know if that would be different now but this is a few decades ago.) When son read it he was shocked and the interviewer said, "Is there any reason he hates you?" Son got the placement.

Good luck to your DD.

Ok. What if he had 50 personal tutees?

Thanks for this, I've seen it and decided not to come back to my teaching related admin this evening after all, having already worked on teaching and related admin for 11 hours today, had lunch at my desk and just stopped to feed my children their dinner,
Clearly my work is not respected so indeed, the rest of my students can wait a bit longer for their feedback and results because I apparently hate teaching and students. FFS

perhaps his tutor refused to give the reference because he knew that it would have to be a poor one

You are way too enmeshed and over-involved with your university-aged daughter.

When I was at uni, I would never have shared such detail with my parents. And my mum would never have been able to write such a long detailed mumsnet thread about anything I was doing…

She’s an adult, university is like a job. She should be sorting it all out herself.

Her mistake was going to a tutor she didn’t know that well for a reference, instead of asking a lecturer or seminar leader who she was closer to. But she has learned a lesson from it. No one owes you a good personal reference, no matter how detailed your request is, that’s why you should pick someone you’re friendly with and who you trust.

She goes to someone above him and says what you've said here.

So?

That’s not the tutees’ problem. They were assigned a personal tutor and told that he would be on hand to support their academic progress. He wasn’t.

Undoubtedly the university has accepted many more undergraduates than it can reasonably cope with; and I dare say it’s a job that few academics want to do. But why should the students suffer?

Huh. I’m sorry you had that experience. I had one term of sabbatical in the 11 years I worked in UK HE. I did get another __teaching release of one module one term because I brought in a largish research grant

I had about 50 personal tutees. We met with L1’s once per week during the first year in seminar groups…discussed study skills, researching, writing essays, internships, careers, alumni from other universities came and gave talks about opportunities in their fields, etc. I also met for an hour a term with my L2 and L3 students to see how things were going. Some of them were my dissertation students or former students from modules, others were not. But I knew them, and tried to answer their questions. Sometimes, I couldn’t, but directed them to someone who could…not fobbing off really.

I suppose that as the enrolment caps were taken off, the Russell Group universities were oversubscribed. Maybe that happened to you. On the other hand, the tuition hasn’t gone up since 2017, so universities are being asked to do more with less. And, as international student enrolment has tanked (partially due to more restrictive visas), there are a number of universities in financial trouble. Not all post 92s either, but some Russell Group ones.

I’m an experienced university tutor and this is outrageous. You are not supposed to write poor references for students, especially students you do not know really well. The done thing would be to tell the student you are unable to provide a reference. I would advise your daughter to make a complaint, as this seems extremely poor practice. I’d also advise her to ask to swap to a different PT. I lead an undergraduate team and if one of our staff did this we would be really concerned and want to put it right for the student.

It seems that it wasn't actually an awful reference; tutor stated that your daughter is hardworking but lacks experience and is under qualified. Is any of the latter true?
I appreciate it's horrible when your children feel rejected; it really hurts

His point was that he didn’t know him well enough as he hadn’t taught him. Don’t know why you’d assume it would be poor.

So he was just being honest then
He had never taught your son and didn’t think he was best placed to provide a reference

The second one was marginally better, but the first one was utterly useless and insulting to boot.

to be clear @NewFriendlyLadybird …. you weren’t actually sitting beside your son during this 1-2-1 with his tutor?!

This is way off, firstly (and as with employment) you cannot give a bad reference so what tends to happen is they just cite marks and attendance which speaks for itself. This needs to be raised with the university and you need to approach the summer school to see if you can add an additional reference by another tutor

I am sorry about your experience.

Are or were your roommates lecturers on permanent contracts? Perhaps my friends and I have been lucky not to have roommates, except for partners, at that stage.

PGs, postdocs and those on temporary contracts are not looking for sabbaticals; they are just looking for a stable job. Research is everything but they shouldn’t be personal tutors.

Yes but the PT is the person it is always suggested that you ask for a reference. And the best person to give the general sort of reference that you need for a job, I.e., that he turned up when he was supposed to, did his assignments, contributed to group work … and that’s about it. The degree result speaks for itself.

He had no tutor for more than one course, so no one had taught him for more than a term. And while they might have been able to write a reference based on some obscure corner of modern capitalism, it’s not madly useful for a job.

Why on earth did she ask this person for a reference in the first place, given what you’ve said that she says about them? Does she genuinely not have anyone better suited or someone who even vaguely knows her? Has she actually seen their written reference?

My PT at uni was useless, so I would never have thought about asking them for a reference for something I gave a toss about.

Of course not, but my son does speak to me.

This was a poorly run course from start to finish by the sounds of it

She needs to manage this. She is going to interact with overworked/ill informed/inefficient/lazy managers and supervisors for the rest of her life. This is a valuable life lesson - just because someone is senior in position or older doesn't mean they will always get things right.

A polite email saying that she's noticed some factual errors in his reference - perhaps he sent the wrong one? And suggesting they meet up to update and correct it should do the trick.

>admits shes nice and hardworking
>nukes her references for zero discernible reason
Unconscionable evil.

Sorry, not read all your posts op, but can she go to another member of staff - seminar leader, programme leader, someone who knows her and her work in more depth? Her PT sounds like a waste of space. I work in HE and write a lot of references for students. I would never dash off a negative reference. I would fully inform myself about the student and highlight their strengths.

@AnonymousStudentParent

Which field is this in, OP?

it’s the fact the Op thinks he did this because he had other students he wanted to get on to the course more ie intentionally set out to fuck up DD’s application, indicates to me that this OP is…. spinning