Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

It's poor form IMO.

If I had been giving the reference I would have probably discussed it beforehand with the student and told them roughly what I was thinking. Then ask them whether they still wanted me to provide one.

No one on here knows the true capabilities of the student, only what has been said by the OP who some might argue is not exactly in a position to give an unbiased opinion, so it may be that the assessment is correct, but that doesn't to me excuse the fact that it was poorly managed.

Maybe you could cut through the situation this way.

Your daughter has a dilemma related to her academic development and nobody to talk to about it. This man is available for only ten minutes a term. Who should she be talking to?

She would almost certainly be well advised to change PT. If they are all like this, she needs to work out who her key point of contact is from now on, not just for this reference, but for the rest of her academic career.

There must be a course leader equivalent?

Your DDs application will show that she’s at the right stage and she of application so maybe the summer school will take the PTs reference with a pinch of salt?

Little tip for the future.
Most people are short of time (or lazy). In future suggest your DD writes her own reference & sends it to the referee as ‘ background information’ they might find ‘ helpful to draw on’ when writing the reference.

It smacks of patriarchal belittling. I’m actually furious on your behalf OP. Would he have said that to a man of 6ft2? Somehow it feels like it might have been different.

No way should your DD have to put up with that.

To say that it’s way above her level is outright WRONG. And she has proof.

He’s sloppy and lazy from the sounds of things. It’s he who is underperforming, not your DD.

My personal Tutor at Uni just took a dislike to me, it was very obvious. When I applied for my first job out of uni they asked for her details as one of my references. I knew it wouldn’t be amazing even though I was a conscientious student and had achieved a 2:1.

When I was offered the job my new employer said at the end of the call “oh by the way, never use that lady as a reference again, she gave you an awful reference! However we took it with a pinch of salt, since we have met you twice and found you to be the opposite of everything she said!”

So I would hold out, she might still get the position like I did. And your daughter knows to never use him as a referee again!

Not at my sons Unis
I have three and all their PT are not course related

There’s a service for students dealing with job applications, post Uni etc. Plus also MH support and counselling.
There are no course leader equivalents to a PT at their Unis. Which is surprising ( but then when I was at Uni 🎻 we didn’t have one at all )

There was a final presentation with a jury to which families and many other people were invited - there were hundreds of us. It would have been weird not to attend.

There's a thought. She could approach the careers service. They too will have faced this issue, and this is relevant to her career planning. They will likely either advise or liaise with the department.

That’s shocking.

Tutors at university need reminding about the laws of defamation.

I hope one of them gets sued, sooner rather than later.

Employers know this rule and play things safe. Shocking to learn that tutors don’t and get away with it.

Sabotage!!!

She and I have been talking about it this afternoon and I proofread the writing sample she was going to submit and, yes, I think her application is absolutely outstanding :)) so probably the reference will just look silly alongside her transcripts/PS/CV/writing sample/extra piece of writing!

I’m sure the summer school will have experienced their fair share of references written by poor referees!

There's you being "overly involved" again 😂Good for you, your DD is lucky to have such strong support, and I wish her every success with her application.

basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school

I have no idea how these things are meant to work but I have a feeling he stepped over the mark by saying this, and that he's going beyond his role in an attempt gatekeep who gets into the summerschool.

He's not in charge of the summer school's entry criteria. It's up to them to decide if she's too young or not, not him. They can see what her qualifications are on paper in black & white, so again, they will be the judge of whether she's underqualified or not.

a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her

That's the part that they should make a note of, and I would be in their position.

How can he submit a reference if she has not applied yet? Is it like a pre-reference?
I would get someone else to do the actual job reference if possible.
But, for what it counts, if I do get a reference stating that X is too young or unexperienced to do the role I am advertising, I would ignore it? I am the one with the CV and the knowledge of what I want for said role. Plus the interview. I would look at the skills.

I am a former academic who has written many, many references and I am shocked (but not surprised) by this. I always take great care over references, and over the course of many years can only think of one 'bad' reference. (That was where the student had no choice but to ask me and I felt that I had no choice but to give a poor reference (application to medical school and he was beyond unsuitable)). Reference writing is one of the core duties of a college/university tutor and one I'm always glad to do, supporting students
on the next step of their career. But I'm not surprised to hear about this sorry tale. There are too many - mostly male - academics who are slapdash and careless and sometimes worse in their dealings with students. It's a power play thing in some cases and in other cases they simply couldn't care less about their students. Thinking of you, my former PhD supervisor! I hope DD can find someone else to give her a reference who will take the appropriate care and do proper due diligence for her.

I suspect this is a symptom of raising a generation of children who have never had to handle disappointment or rejection because they’ve been protected from it.

She should perhaps have asked someone who knew her a bit better and vice versa, referees aren’t obligated to give glowing references especially when they barely know someone

I'm sorry this has happened. To the people being negative, my DD's experience of a PT at her Cambridge college was very positive and we met him at her graduation. She is a STEM grad, his subject is Arts-based, actually the same one I teach at secondary school, so it was lovely chatting with him. Even though he did not see DD in person during the Covid months, he checked in with her regularly by email and she saw him every term routinely. It was always longer than 10 minutes and he talked warmly about her to us, so it was obvious that he knew her quite well.

I am often asked to provide references for older school students. Some of them are very easy (and pleasurable) to write, others a chore. However, I know that students can see them, so I am careful to be factual and honest and would only ever say something in a reference that I would say to them in person.

Yeah? Just wondering whether you’d feel the same if your boss (or someone else) gave you a reference like this for your new job. Because I know I’d be gutted and angry if that happened.

Yes. I don’t think it does the student any good in the long run.

Oh, I had that happen until I learned how to circumvent it. It was a valuable life lesson.

It had happened to me, I lodged a grievance and then left, then got a nasty reference sent to my next employer as petty revenge. I was just honest and up front with my next employer about what happened and why and they respected that. Which perhaps the OP’s DD should do. Or just go elsewhere for a reference, given the application hasn’t been submitted.

This is revoltingly unprofessional of her personal tutor. I work in HE and there are, of course, occasions when you cannot provide a reference, but, that is what you do: politely say you cannot provide one, not write one like that (unless, of course, there are serious reasons for the negative reference and that does not sound like the case here). It sounds as though the academic did not correctly read the application or, indeed, double check your daughter’s eligibility. Is there another academic who could provide a reference for you to submit alongside this one; it may be too late, it may indeed be that she isn’t ready yet but, better for her to have a chance than after all that work for it to be taken away from her before she has even had someone read the application. I am sorry this has happened as it must have been upsetting.

I’m glad she had a good experience. I might offer the personal tutee/student ratio may be a little less numerous than at other universities. There is also a designated senior tutor at each of the colleges, and then (at least in Cambridge), a Dean of Discipline to deal with student infractions, etc.

I tutored 5 pairs of students per module at Oxford; outside there, my third year classes were about 60 students. I had 10 personal tutees at Oxford; at another university I had 50. It makes a big difference.

I wouldn’t appreciate this, though like previous academic PP I require a copy of the CV and application materials.

This seems to me a complex situation, possibly with two sides, but I agree that if the OP’s summary is accurate the PT should have declined to write. I only write positive letters; then it is a question of degree.