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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Getting a third - what next?

257 replies

Selwyngum · 24/04/2024 14:42

My DD is in her third year at Cambridge, studying Engineering. She hasn’t got on at all well there. She failed her first year exams and got a third in her second year exams. She has just started her year 3 exams and thinks she is on course for a 3rd again, which will mean she can’t progress to do the fourth year (MEng).

She is talking about dropping out and retaking the year. I’m not sure that’s worthwhile as she has worked incredibly hard this year, but just doesn’t seem to get the results.

She has struggled with depression in the past so keeping her on an even keel is much more important to me than any academic results. I want to be as supportive as possible but I’m at a loss.

My gut feeling is that a third class degree won’t get her very far in terms of employment. I’m wondering if she could transfer in September to the third year of an engineering degree elsewhere.

She got 4 A* grades at A level, is very bright but dyslexic. In hindsight Cambridge was the wrong place for her but regretting that doesn’t help her now.

Does anyone have any insight or experience? She feels she’s wasted a huge amount of time and money and I would love to help her work out what to do next. Please be kind.

OP posts:
TizerorFizz · 26/04/2024 21:18

I think dc get 4 years funding. Don’t they?

Selwyngum · 26/04/2024 21:48

There are interesting points here about how much universities should intervene, how much they get blamed when things go horribly wrong, etc.

My own DD is not particularly communicative but in general the fact that youngsters can ring their parents any time for support does tend to mean that they don't get practice in working through problems on their own or with the help of friends - as our generation would have done, given that contact with parents was by (usually inaccessible and very public) payphone or even letter! There's also the impact of covid on friendships and general settling in at university (definitely a factor for my DD). Plus the stress of that huge student debt hanging over them, and the worry that the economic climate will mean that they won't find a job, even with a good degree.

I know that there are plenty of very dedicated and supportive people working at universities, including Oxbridge. My DD's current personal tutor is wonderful. But in the past she's had some run-ins with a supervisor who has deliberately tried to demean her when she's turned up to supervisions having not been able to finish the work. Added to that, as I said upthread, the department itself has stated that they expect students to be doing 70 hours work a week. In addition, their timetabled hours are sometimes 5 or 6 hours in a row, without a comfort break let alone time to eat. Last term, one of DD's supervisions was scheduled at 10 PM on a Friday evening.

When DD previously had time off for ill health (not MH), I spoke to the senior tutor at her college about her situation. He told me that he thought there was "too much" in the engineering degree. I've also met someone who used to supervise in the engineering department at Cambridge who told me that they deliberately set out to "break" the students when they arrive because they are so arrogant and think they know everything. I must say that my DD has been very thoroughly broken by the experience.

I know that no degree at Oxbridge is going to be easy and I also know that my DD has a perfect storm of issues (dyslexia, depression and a covid start) which makes a bad situation worse. Clearly some students manage! But I don't know why they have to make it so extremely tough in human terms (the working conditions) as well as in an academic sense.

Sorry for the lengthy rant.

OP posts:
Rummikub · 26/04/2024 22:04

TizerorFizz · 26/04/2024 21:18

I think dc get 4 years funding. Don’t they?

No.

it’s based on a calculation. It’s not as simple as 1+3, or 2+2 anymore.

Rummikub · 26/04/2024 22:12

Length of new course minus Time spent on old course + 1 = remaining funding

Juja · 26/04/2024 22:20

@Selwyngum I've been following your thread for a few days and wanted to say what an impressive, balanced, caring and thoughtful parent you are in the face of responding to what sounds like a really tricky situation.

Your daughter's mood as she says will be being affected by her anti-depressents and the whole finals 'thing' at O & C is incredibly intense. It is so hard to have perspective. 30 years ago I had to leave O for a weekend shortly before finals to prevent myself throwing all my notes in the river convinced I was going to do dreadfully (I didn't), many other friends found it hugely challenging too. This year my DC1 has his finals and he's had quite a bumpy ride.

It sounds as though your DD is doing brilliantly putting one foot in front of another and getting through the exams one at a time. She may well have under estimated her performance but even if it turns out not so good there are many alternative pathways that others have outlined. She sounds like a lovely young woman who's ended up with a poor set of cards due to circumstances.

I wish you and your DD all the very best.

Selwyngum · 26/04/2024 22:53

Thank you @Juja. Really kind of you and much appreciated.

OP posts:
TizerorFizz · 27/04/2024 08:13

@Selwyngum I have no idea why Cambridge run the course the way they do.

DH has run a professional engineering consultancy for over 40 years. They have employed around 100 engineers of differing levels of qualification for around half of that time, having started with 2 in the early 80s. He’s never worked for 70 hours a week and it was his company! He did briefly for a former employer because the terms of his contract were so good he effectively doubled his salary by doing extra hours on site as Resident Engineer staff. We saved for a house deposit in 6 months and bought a new car! So in real life, I cannot see why Cambridge think silly hours is necessary or a good thing. It’s neither.

I am risking boring others, but parents of future students do need to understand that Cambridge doesn’t give any obvious advantage in engineering. DH does have a Cambridge grad in a very valuable environmental engineering role, but engineers from elsewhere fulfil their roles just as well. Cambridge engineer was not recruited because of Cambridge. Experience and interest in that area of work meant more because it’s specialised. However that’s fairly standard in engineering these days. The all rounder engineer like DH is long gone!

Degree simply is not the full picture but budding engineers should be aware that many RG unis, RG plus as well as unis like Surrey and former polys can and do produce young engineers of high calibre. I don’t know what the workload is elsewhere, but I would expect 9-5 and more prior to exams and during projects with deadlines. Whilst the prestige is lauded by schools and families in going to Cambridge, afterwards, the playing field is more level than most think. Clearly some engineers are destined to take more qualifications and teach, but those who work for companies will have been to many unis. Oxbridge and Imperial are not over represented at the top end of earners either. So, in conclusion be kind to yourself when choosing a uni for engineering. All dc will have to work hard and challenge the marines, but there is success available at work after many degrees.

Selwyngum · 27/04/2024 08:17

@TizerorFizz Yup. I wish I’d known.

OP posts:
DagnabbitDeputyDawg · 27/04/2024 09:28

Degree simply is not the full picture but budding engineers should be aware that many RG unis, RG plus as well as unis like Surrey and former polys can and do produce young engineers of high calibre.

And, in the case of Surrey and some others, probably with a year's experience of actually working in a relevant industry that will make them both more employable and more capable of telling a good job from a bad one.

Needmoresleep · 27/04/2024 10:04

I would add a note of caution. If she is set on a particular industry she may find that employers in that field are looking for specific things, perhaps a strong aptitude for maths, or having taken relevant courses, things that a more general engineering consultancy might not be as interested in.

DD has an engineering degree. Medical students can be allowed to take a year out and acquire a BSc. Hers is in biomedical engineering from Imperial. She was literally given six weeks before the start of term to catch up on the maths and electronics and then joined third year engineering students.

In her case lockdown may have been an advantage as she found the course fascinating and was stuck in her bedroom with little else to do, so could put in the hours. In fairness she would have saved time because labs were not available and she did not need to commute, indeed the first time she saw the university bar was after her graduation. She has been told that she is able to apply for the main standalone MSc, or could approach research teams directly if she wanted to progress to a PhD.

In that, admittedly isosteric, field there seems to be no mention of chartered or the need for a MSc, and indeed the Imperial starting sending her targeted emails from recruiters, some with very high starting salaries, who seem to value the BSc alone.

In the same way as Cambridge would, Imperial carries real name recognition. Saying she has an engineering degree from Imperial impresses medical colleagues. No one ever asks what class degree she got. She also knows a lot. The poor radiologist who innocently asked a group of final year medical students if they knew how a scanner worked, did not expect that one of the group might give him chapter and verse on the underlying engineering. I assume, given the ability of the cohort and the intensity and quality of the teaching that Cambridge and Imperial cover more ground.

A friend of DDs struggled at University. He was very bright, and though quiet had a group of loyal friends at school. University was a different matter. As an international student he found the English students ignored him whilst several years in English boarding schools meant he was not accepted by his own countrymen. He found himself unhappy and isolated, which impacted his studies and he was not able to continue to the fourth year at his well regarded London University. . However he was accepted by another prestigious RG University for a stand alone Masters, and indeed is now taking a PhD.

I have just looked up the course. Entry requirements are a 2.1 or international equivalent or "evidence of significant, relevant work experience". My guess that the fact he had graduated from "tough" course, as well as his willingness to pay international fees approaching £35,000pa will have helped. Plus that other than degree class he was a straight A student.

Fees are the issue. Fees for Integrated Masters are capped at UG rates, and student loans are available. Switch Universities and you are paying whatever fees they choose to charge, and engineering is an expensive course to run.

One step at a time. She is doing very well overcoming her panic and giving each exam her best shot. She should gain confidence from that. See what happens. One option might be to approach the firms she has interned for and others in fields that interest her to try to take a working gap year. If she remains interested in that path and has a year to rebuild confidence and to gain a bit of perspective, she can then decide on what next. However all credit to her for getting on with the exams.

,

poetryandwine · 27/04/2024 11:15

Selwyngum · 26/04/2024 21:48

There are interesting points here about how much universities should intervene, how much they get blamed when things go horribly wrong, etc.

My own DD is not particularly communicative but in general the fact that youngsters can ring their parents any time for support does tend to mean that they don't get practice in working through problems on their own or with the help of friends - as our generation would have done, given that contact with parents was by (usually inaccessible and very public) payphone or even letter! There's also the impact of covid on friendships and general settling in at university (definitely a factor for my DD). Plus the stress of that huge student debt hanging over them, and the worry that the economic climate will mean that they won't find a job, even with a good degree.

I know that there are plenty of very dedicated and supportive people working at universities, including Oxbridge. My DD's current personal tutor is wonderful. But in the past she's had some run-ins with a supervisor who has deliberately tried to demean her when she's turned up to supervisions having not been able to finish the work. Added to that, as I said upthread, the department itself has stated that they expect students to be doing 70 hours work a week. In addition, their timetabled hours are sometimes 5 or 6 hours in a row, without a comfort break let alone time to eat. Last term, one of DD's supervisions was scheduled at 10 PM on a Friday evening.

When DD previously had time off for ill health (not MH), I spoke to the senior tutor at her college about her situation. He told me that he thought there was "too much" in the engineering degree. I've also met someone who used to supervise in the engineering department at Cambridge who told me that they deliberately set out to "break" the students when they arrive because they are so arrogant and think they know everything. I must say that my DD has been very thoroughly broken by the experience.

I know that no degree at Oxbridge is going to be easy and I also know that my DD has a perfect storm of issues (dyslexia, depression and a covid start) which makes a bad situation worse. Clearly some students manage! But I don't know why they have to make it so extremely tough in human terms (the working conditions) as well as in an academic sense.

Sorry for the lengthy rant.

I hate this machismo attitude and I see no point to it. Nor do I believe that many students adhere to a 70 hr work week, even at Cambridge. It isn’t healthy. Timetabling supervisions for 10 pm on Fridays seems to me to be the power play of a lonely, arrogant person. I am surprised they were able to get away with this.

I am much older than your DD, but I will never forget underperforming in two key modules taught by professors who exhibited similar types of machismo. I didn’t start to come into my own until I lucked into a (notoriously difficult, compulsory) module taught by a fellow with a very different attitude. He announced the first day that he wanted to get the best out of each of us, and he had put a great deal of effort into structuring the module in order to do that - without compromising standards. Incidentally he achieved his professorship and various international esteems at a very young age, leaving the macho guys in the dust.

I had hoped the old attitudes in STEM were dying out.

poetryandwine · 27/04/2024 11:29

@TizerorFizz you’ve made a good point that some students may not be able to handle the maths in their STEM courses. You’ve reminded me that I have had two such myself, one in the US and one in the UK. They both scraped a pass in the maths-intensive course I taught.

The young woman worked a lot with me and really did have a blind spot. She was otherwise able and hardworking. She was doing an MSc, steered as clear as she could of maths, and got a Merit. The guy was an undergrad and more relaxed in his attitude toward study. I don’t know what happened to him. I can imagine him as someone who would have been overwhelmed by our university.

I also had one tutee who was overwhelmed intellectually and did not belong. They scraped a Third through gamesmanship I steered clear of. But the problem didn’t seem to be maths per se.

These are the only two I know well enough to say there was a genuine intellectual limiting factor. So it isn’t that common although I am sure there have been others in my path.

The other thing, and it was mentioned up thread, is that universities are hugely reluctant to lose the dosh. Every £ matters right now, even when it isn’t obtained in the most responsible manner. The riches of Oxbridge give them a cushion in this matter.
I am not implying that I approve

poetryandwine · 27/04/2024 11:31

I am not implying that I approve of dubious ethical decisions, I mean. I am merely envious of the support and guidance that Oxbridge can offer, owing to the financial position, that we cannot.

ErrolTheDragon · 27/04/2024 19:42

Nor do I believe that many students adhere to a 70 hr work week, even at Cambridge.

Neither do I. I had a pair of third years living here for a couple of months during 2020 and then dd back for her finals ... even though there was bugger all else to do except work and go for walks I don't think they did that much. In more normal times dd said she mostly went for 8/8/8 - eight hours each work, relaxation and sleep.

TizerorFizz · 27/04/2024 20:34

Yes - 9-5 is a good idea. Or similar if it suits DC better. I also think slogging away is soul destroying too and should not be cited as needed. EU had a 48 hour working week for a reason.

@poetryandwine I was hopeless at maths or “Quantitive studies” as it was called on my HNC. Could get A at everything else but maths doesn’t stick. So my first year results were AAAD. My tutor thought the D was a typo bless him. To this day, I don’t know how I got a D. I think someone was nice to me. Avoided anything remotely mathematical after that.

Enginemum · 27/04/2024 22:55

My daughter is taking the same exams this week and next. They are truly hard and horrible. She should just finish them and plan later. She can always appeal and any engineering degree is highly worthwhile. I may be there tomorrow too as all too stressful!

Selwyngum · 27/04/2024 23:13

Good luck to your girl too, @enginemum!

OP posts:
Selwyngum · 27/04/2024 23:16

Sounds like your DD is a much more organised and level-headed student than mine, @ErrolTheDragon. I’ll have to ask how many hours mine thinks she does… she’s certainly been doing very little socialising alas.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 28/04/2024 11:43

OP, it may not be just a case of level-headedness. Dyslexics often have a level of ADHD thrown in.
I am no expert but it can mean problems focussing and jumping from one thought/subject to another. It can mean greater creativity but it also means time is spent less productively. An issue when subjects get harder.
After the exams she might do a bit of googling to see if she fits the profile. And if so look for tips on how to best manage her different sort of approach and intelligence. I don't think you necessarily need a diagnosis, just an understanding of your own strengths and weaknesses and their impacts in different situations.

crazycrofter · 28/04/2024 12:28

@Selwyngum i would second what @Needmoresleep says. Our dd managed As and A stars at A Level with lots of structure and accountability, but has floundered at uni. She’s got loads of lectures to catch up with like your dd! She’s on the pathway to ADHD diagnosis (her brother has it too - diagnosed at 13). She also just rang me to tell me she’s lost her one and only car key and what should she do 😩

Juja · 28/04/2024 13:54

@crazycrofter Snap here - DC1 at Oxford spent first year floundering after scaffold of school and home disappeared. I've lost count of lost phones, lost wallets resulting in inability to authenticate online systems to upload essays, access banking etc..... They refused to progress a AHDH diagnosis, not wanting a label, and mid way through second year found ways of working that suited them. Now is having to catch up on 1st year lectures for finals.

It's been a challenging ride and their course doesn't sound nearly as demanding at OP's DD but overall I think they will come out of uni more equipped to face work with their own strategies rather then relying on a scaffold imposed by others. The process has at times been completely infuriating as a parent... all part of letting them go, trip and pick themselves up.

TizerorFizz · 28/04/2024 16:41

Lots of comparing apples and pears here.

Biomedical is a branch of Mechanical Engineering. Obviously entry level jobs wanting a BEng are not recruiting for a senior post where experience and further qualifications matter. Any BEng can get a job. Obviously. However in many branches of engineering, further qualifications matter if the engineers are to progress to a higher level of job and a leadership role. Do you really want structural engineers designing complex structures who are straight out of uni with no supervision from someone fully qualified? Probably not. So let’s not pretend a BEng is good enough in most fields of engineering for a career with prospects and sometimes designs must be overseen by a CEng. For safety it’s vital.

There’s a world of difference between a third and a 2:1 and not all employers care about what Cambridge cares about. Plus a 4 year degree does cover useful modules in y4 or why would they ever be offered?

Needmoresleep · 28/04/2024 17:05

Tizer, I think your DH may be a bit behind the times. Wiki might be your friend.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomedical_engineering

Biomedical engineering - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomedical_engineering

TizerorFizz · 28/04/2024 20:13

@Needmoresleep That’s mostly USA and I don’t think DH knows the first thing about it. However IMechE list it as a discipline. I might choose to believe them.

ErrolTheDragon · 28/04/2024 20:44

Biomedical is a branch of Mechanical Engineering.
Nope.
It's a massive, very varied field ... tbh 'biomedical engineering' is almost too broad a field to be a useful category. There are a subset of 'biomedical engineers' who are mechanical engineers to be sure, so their institute may list it. But it covers all sorts of other areas and requires many other skills, some of which you probably wouldn't classify as being engineering at all, and which don't require an engineering degree. (I work in one of the areas it encompasses).

Not sure what relevance it has to this thread though.Confused

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