Getting a third - what next?

[Selwyngum]

My DD is in her third year at Cambridge, studying Engineering. She hasn’t got on at all well there. She failed her first year exams and got a third in her second year exams. She has just started her year 3 exams and thinks she is on course for a 3rd again, which will mean she can’t progress to do the fourth year (MEng).

She is talking about dropping out and retaking the year. I’m not sure that’s worthwhile as she has worked incredibly hard this year, but just doesn’t seem to get the results.

She has struggled with depression in the past so keeping her on an even keel is much more important to me than any academic results. I want to be as supportive as possible but I’m at a loss.

My gut feeling is that a third class degree won’t get her very far in terms of employment. I’m wondering if she could transfer in September to the third year of an engineering degree elsewhere.

She got 4 A* grades at A level, is very bright but dyslexic. In hindsight Cambridge was the wrong place for her but regretting that doesn’t help her now.

Does anyone have any insight or experience? She feels she’s wasted a huge amount of time and money and I would love to help her work out what to do next. Please be kind.

This will be unthinkable to some, especially as your DD will be a Cambridge graduate. There are more graduates than grad scheme places out there. You can have a perfectly happy and successful life without a place on one. Let your DD develop a squiggly career, get her MH back on track and build her skills outside of all the "you must ..." expectations. A surprising number of graduates do exactly this.

The workload and exceptions from Oxford and Cambridge is on a completely different level to other uni's.

My DS is studying for the same degree as a friend's DD at Oxford. The name of the course is where the similarities end. My DS is attending a respected Russell group uni, however, his workload over the entire three years is less than one year's work at Oxford.

My DS is bright, but after hearing first hand the expectations I don't think he would have managed.

I have no words of wisdom OP, but wanted to share that I hear your concerns. The exam period is brutal for DC at Cambridge or Oxford. I echo what others have said and would encourage your DD to discuss her options with her tutor so she can make an informed decision.

I’m an ex-Oxford academic, though in humanities, and I struggle to believe her tutors ‘don’t care’. Is she actually engaging with what help there is? Again and again, across the institutions I’ve taught at, I see the students who don’t engage, don’t ask for help and take it when it’s offered, are the ones who fail and drop out.

Would you/she think about dropping out now and restarting from year 2 (unlikely to find anywhere that will take her into year three but might be worth putting feelers out)?

With a degree in Engineering she would NOT be eligible for an apprenticeship in the same subject so that's not an option.

Obviously leaving with a 3rd is but that come with a heap of other hurdles if she wants to become an engineer.

Before I got to your 4th paragraph, @Selwyngum I was thinking "transfer out and take 2nd or 3rd year again elsewhere"

But she might need more than that if she has some depression.

FWIW a friend of mine got a 3rd in a Humanities degree at my old university, farted about for a couple of years, went back to university to specialise in something else and how heads up a Dept at a children's hospital in that specialty. Funding was easier back then, however.

So it's not hopeless, its not the end of the world. I hope she finds a way around this.

@PoppyJM , Carol V would have graduated in the early 1980s. A third then was probably the equivalent of a 2:2 now. According to Wiki she had a junior civil engineering job afterwards.
Her Cambridge degree was probably useful in securing her break into TV.

She needs to speak to student support
https://www.studentsupport.cam.ac.uk/academic-support
and explain exactly where she’s at and that she’s thinking of leaving. If she feels this is difficult then there should be a student welfare officer at the union who can help and advocate.
unis generally don’t want you to leave; they can’t magic her grades but they can offer genuine guidance
it is possible to transfer credits too so if she wanted to go somewhere else or possibly even an apprenticeship she should start with that kind of question as wellZ

Why are some folks posting about 30 or 40 years ago. The world moved on. A third now is not the same as a third decades ago.

op, what does she wish to do?

@Lampslights , if that was aimed at me, I was commenting on a pp.
You are right in that the world has moved on, but outside engineering a 'degree from Cambridge' might carry more cachet than a degree from a less prestigious university.

Don't know about the 1980s but in the 1990s only about 3 percent got a third in economics and the vast majority got a 2:1. It was very uncommon but still possible to have a successful career. My DH said their engineering company which covers aeronautical would consider people with thirds from Cambridge.

Has she applied for any jobs? I know a lad who got a third from a good university that is highly ranked for engineering and as he had already got an offer from a areonautical engineering company I got the job he was still taken on despite not meeting the 2:1 requirement of his job offer. This was eight years ago though.

If she's considering starting work soon my DHs company are recruiting and cover aerospace and DH said they would consider a third from Cambridge. I am not an engineer so don't know full details or if its suitable and it may not be the best option but if she might be interested feel free to PM. DH has worked across multiple sectors like aerospace, fuel cells in cars, nuclear power, oil and gas and there's masses of mathematical modelling / research. Its not the best for pay, some switch over to finance paying double for similar but he does wfh and reasonable hours and interesting work which works well for us. I think his team are about 2 down at the moment.

@titchy She could look sideways though. There’s lots of non engineering apprenticeships where numeracy is a big bonus.

As DH employs engineers, Cambridge offers no advantage over other top ranking unis. They don’t really work harder at engineering than others do on the top quality courses. Quite frankly a third from Cambridge is not a 2:1 from elsewhere if your writing skills are causing issues. A MEng is challenging just about everywhere and certainly DH liked practical engineers from former polys. A Cambridge third won’t necessarily compete and probably flags up issues an employer won’t necessarily wish to engage with. I’m sorry if that sounds brutal but that’s why I think looking elsewhere for a career could be better.

Oh, I forgot to say: DC of a friend with a 2:2 from Cambridge (Trinity Maths) took over a year to get a job. Doors do unfortunately close.

I am an academic in a STEM subject at a UK university but not Oxbridge. It might be worthwhile for you and your daughter to investigate the possibility of transferring to another university - she could perhaps leave Cambridge now and go directly into year 3 of another university in the next academic year? If you find a university that she might be interested in, look online to find the academic responsible for Admissions and get your daughter to make contact. We have occasionally taken Cambridge students who just find the atmosphere and pressure of work at Cambridge too stressful.

Oh dear @Selwyngum I can imagine this is causing a lot of sleepless nights for you and DD. It's so hard when they're distressed...

I can absolutely relate as my DS was in the same position as your DD this time last year. But substitute Computer Science at Oxford for Engineering at Cambridge.

On the bright side, he's now got a decent job in his degree area and is trying to build his CV to the point where employers stop looking at the degree class and start looking at the skills and achievements. To do this he ditched most formal internship / graduate scheme routes and focussed more on temporary and entry level jobs, especially looking at start ups / growing SMEs. That's given him the start he needed and the boost to his confidence.

I appreciate that employment pathways in software are a bit different to engineering, mind you, and he wasn't (visibly) depressed, just bog standard ND scatty.

I work in tech in Cambridge as it happens. It might be helpful for your DD (if she can find the emotional energy - I know it must be difficult at the moment) to look a bit beyond the university and the end of term to see if there might be opportunities for something short term around here. I'll DM you with some suggestions if that helps?

Rusticating, together with some tutoring with someone who has gone through the Cambridge course, would be a good option. Sometimes the reading material is so dense, it can be difficult to sift what is important and develop that deeper understanding, and the time and space to do that may assist.

Has she done the maths on what is possible given her second year grades?

The other option might be to transfer - even to the OU. It looks likely she could transfer her existing credits in the exams she did better in to the OU and maybe get through the mandatory qualifications and just get it done so she can move on with her life.

If DD is struggling with writing then how is another uni less stressful? DC will need to write in any engineering degree. Also in any engineering job.

I do agree with @gizmo Look at smaller companies and find a way in.

Is she actually putting the work in??

I wouldn’t encourage her to retake the year unless she really wants to. I have employed Oxbridge graduates who seriously struggle with their mental health as a result of their time there. Maybe take a year out and reassess what she really wants to do

I would explore:

1. college JCR welfare office.
2. college tutor - I feel this is a bit luck of the draw if they are open or not. if she is worried about saying she’s struggling it is hard, but she or you might need to spell it out a few times for tutors to really get it.
3. student support - links in pp and careers service
4. college nurse if they are still a thing
5. student union rep on welfare
6. GP locally as I’m sure they will have seen this

Other avenues are:

Her college may have some sort of alumni/ ex students mentor programme as I know a few do. This might be people who have gone through her course and have useful engineering advice.

industry associations - depending on the type of engineering the IET or IMECH may have careers support that you can look up.

this is for a mix of MH and careers advice from the different groups. It may be better to swap out and finish a degree elsewhere but only she can really take that call with info.

MH is a much bigger thing at Cambridge - it really wasn’t 15/20/30 years ago. I saw lots of people not get support and it can be alienating, isolating and reinforce negative beliefs (imposter’s syndrome mainly) as well as being a hothouse bubble.

Maybe get her out of Cambridge for a weekend for perspective.

Sorry she is going through this. In a few years time it will be further away and she will be able find a path that’s not the milk round or a grad scheme. The work needs engineers.

She can't just pull out and repeat a year because she chooses to do so to improve her grades. She would have to demonstrate significant personal circumstances that require her to take leave of absence, and this would have to be approved by the university. Even if she deliberately fails the exams and resits she would have to provide evidence of extenuating circumstances to be allowed to repeat the year.

Engineering at Cambridge has a much higher workload than most other universities. Significantly more pressured.
A transfer could be a good move. Give her a new start in a less intensive environment.

She's emailed her tutor and asked for advice given that she thinks she's on course for a third. The tutor has been very kind and helpful previously when DD was having a mental health crisis -- but she can't wave a magic wand, clearly.

One major issue is that DD is very bad at sharing with us or anyone when things are going wrong. In fact she doesn't even seem to be aware of not coping. She's extremely unchatty by phone, and I didn't pick up on how bad things had got during any of our recent calls. We spent the Easter weekend together and she seemed relatively perky. But today when I spoke to her, she said that she'd got behind with lectures, and that meant that she then got more and more overwhelmed with the work that builds on the lectures she's supposed to have attended. She'd struggled with motivation getting up on time etc. I think she'd got very vague which is the last thing you need on an intense course like hers. But she certainly wasn't just dossing around as a PP seemed to imply. She's pretty much cut herself off from any social life, and does nothing but work or not work, as the case may be.

She said she had been offered help by supervisors but she felt that there was no point in taking up the offer because she was so far behind and didn't have the time to go in depth on a topic when she hadn't even necessarily covered the basics.

She was having sessions with the college counsellor previously, but didn't find that particularly helpful. During the previous MH crisis I strongly encouraged her to let me set up counselling but she was very resistant. She had CBT as a child for a particular issue and found it made things better in the short term but worse in the long term. (I think she's got PTSD from this childhood trauma, which might explain why she seems so out of touch with her reactions -- as if what she's going through is happening to someone else. But getting her to seek help for this, whatever it is, is impossible.)

Anyway, she's going to share with me what the tutor suggests. DH thinks that she should just try to get through the exams and see what she ends up with. When I suggested going in to another uni to do a third year, she seemed fairly positive about it, and keen to live at home, to save money if nothing else. At least then we could keep an eye on her.

Sorry for the lengthy posts. I'm really grateful for everyone's answers. And posting is helping me think things through.