Getting a third - what next?

[Selwyngum]

My DD is in her third year at Cambridge, studying Engineering. She hasn’t got on at all well there. She failed her first year exams and got a third in her second year exams. She has just started her year 3 exams and thinks she is on course for a 3rd again, which will mean she can’t progress to do the fourth year (MEng).

She is talking about dropping out and retaking the year. I’m not sure that’s worthwhile as she has worked incredibly hard this year, but just doesn’t seem to get the results.

She has struggled with depression in the past so keeping her on an even keel is much more important to me than any academic results. I want to be as supportive as possible but I’m at a loss.

My gut feeling is that a third class degree won’t get her very far in terms of employment. I’m wondering if she could transfer in September to the third year of an engineering degree elsewhere.

She got 4 A* grades at A level, is very bright but dyslexic. In hindsight Cambridge was the wrong place for her but regretting that doesn’t help her now.

Does anyone have any insight or experience? She feels she’s wasted a huge amount of time and money and I would love to help her work out what to do next. Please be kind.

Degree class really matters in the UK and so your daughter needs to investigate all possible avenues to getting a 2:1, even if this means transferring to another university.

@CamQuestion you absolutely get it. Thank you. I’ll try to pass on that advice. I think she’s caught up on lectures now but has certainly wasted a lot of time on that.

We’re seeing her on Sunday and will hope to support and encourage her as much as possible.

She’s done well in some of her labs and her (?) integrated design projects, but they seem to count for very little in terms of the percentage of the final marks.

All this is in the context of the department telling them that they should be doing SEVENTY hours of work a week. So it’s a wonder any of them survive that.

I can see why you are so concerned. I think some options could be- consider transferring to a lower ranking university and retaking third year; living at home sounds like a good idea. Or look at a masters she could get onto.

If she does get a third, it will limit her options considerably in terms of next steps so the best thing to do would be research what options are available to her in terms of jobs, further study, training schemes etc.

DH said at his company if someone joins with a non-accredited degree they provide training and people can get chartered status via that so the work route is possible if she cannot find a solution elsewhere or prefers that. He said just send her CV in to where he works (or wherever she is interested in) and they always have jobs available and are very inclusive and will adapt for dyslexia. It may also be worth looking at job ads for companies she's interested in and see what they are asking for and work back from that - if may be its not possible in one step but maybe one job which gives experience then try.

If when you go down her mental health appears to be in complete crisis I would also let her college know yourself and consider just taking her home.

I agree that at higher Universities the lecturers are far more focused in their own research than on students. I did my first degree at Warwick and although I did get a 2:1 I didn't get much help or support. It was so l or swim. Five years later I did a different degree at Coventry University and the lecturers were falling over themselves to offer help and support. I still got a 2:1 but took 1 less module to gain it. Could your DD get a tutor to help support her. A girl on my Warwick course was badly failing and there was talk of her dropping out but she got a private tutor to go through things with her more slowly. She ended up with a 2:2 and she really pulled it around.

I am also in favour of being proactive, @TizerorFizz . But our students are adults and there is only so much we can do.

We offer PG tutoring before the summer resits (and we are nowhere near as rich as Oxbridge); uptake is pathetic. I have relatively popular office hours etc and even that means just a few students in a good week. The average in my School is below one.

I also work with my own tutees by request and my colleagues would do the same but many are seldom asked. It is very difficult to create an environment where students who have been top of the class for 13 years and are now struggling will ask for help. Across the UK we put so much effort into dealing with this, and the experience is so different from teaching in US universities - where you must hold 2-3 office hrs/wk and students will drop by just to chat - that I wonder how much of the problem is down to the secondary education system. Americans seem to have a greater sense that trying matters. I don’t know why.

BTW Loughborough STEM education is a terrific exception to what I’ve said above. Their Teaching and Learning programme is wonderful and justly renowned for engaging students

@Penguinsa Just looked at one of DHs Institutions. For the Experiential Assessment Route for CEng, they still want an accredited BEng. The experience is to replace the Masters. IEng is accredited Foundation or HND qualification. Maybe other types of engineering are different but it would not be possible in DHs field.

@poetryandwine I do respect that students are adults but every time there’s a student suicide, parents say it’s the fault of the uni. Some have been very vocal about this so I wondered if there was greater vigilance now. I fully appreciate it’s difficult but with poor results surely there are reviews when there’s such a difference between entry qualifications and exam results? Maybe a discussion about where might be a better choice is relevant? A sort of “managed move” discussion in the world of schools. Or is that just impossible? I don’t know.

Apply for aeronautical apprenticeships. In a competitive field like aeronautical engineer and 2:2 would be challenging but a third will be like walking through treacle. People still look at A Levels so they will go in her favour.

Lots of people are on here talking about how they know such and such who has a third and is successful. It is possible, but its much harder now than it was a few years ago. Is she able to get a job at one of the places she did her internships? A good apprenticeship may play to her strengths more so, although they are not easy to get on to.

Low uptake doesn't mean disengaged students. They may simply have found more efficient ways like studying with a friend. That's certainly what I did - got quicker answers and in greater depth. Most of the academics, Nobel Prize winners etc were just not good at explaining. I also wasn't going to wait around for a weekly office hour when I could just ask my mates!

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@TizerorFizz

Not much to add but a 3rd is not the end of the world! I know two people who graduated with a 3rd. One now a graphic designer for a big alcohol brand and another a chemical engineer.

@Socrateswasrightaboutvoting A pp said you cannot do an apprenticeship if you have a degree in the same subject. Thats why a few of us are saying move sideways.

Of course, when they are succeeding without us that’s best of all. I am thinking about the ones who aren’t.

There was a massive readjustment of standards 10-12 years ago. You can now get a 2.2 in my subject with very limited understanding; there is no academic reason for anyone we admit to get a Third.

We are also pretty good with email, have Learning Labs, PG tutors, etc with low uptake by weak students. This, and the earlier thread I referred to, is by no means about academics feeling the need to provide help personally.

It's probably not appropriate to discuss on the OP's thread but In many universities I get the impression that students either have massive MH issues or just aren't bothered.

Not intending to preach to the choir, but this probably isn't new - it just wasn't seen as a big issue. I know so many people who dropped out of university and went on to succeed anyway. But in those days, few people had a degree, lots of opportunitity for all.

These days it's much more competitive and universities are all about money. When people do badly there's a lot of effort to keep them in, instead of considering whether they'd be better off doing something else. And of course, the massive financial investment.

Has she had the full disability support from the uni, or has she been failed?

@Oblomov24 she's filled in all the (lengthy) forms so they are theoretically aware of her issues... but it doesn't seem to translate to actually making any adjustments at all. eg She still gets the densely typed, poorly laid out, huge documents to digest that are the standard issue. She's been offered some mentoring (I think) but hasn't availed of it because she feels she hasn't got time. She's had some counselling in college but i'm not sure how much. She didn't feel it helped.

I am aware that she is, to some extent, her own worst enemy.

@MaseratiIsYellow I agree. At one point DD had run out of her antidepressants. I knew that it was a problem not to keep up the dose, so I asked her what she was going to do. "Oh, it's ok," she said, "I'll just ask my friend who's on the same medication." Then it happened another time and she was going to ask someone else. There are so, so many unhappy students. It's awful.

That's such a simple thing to fix - it's appalling that she's been failed!
Of course in theory she should point it out, keep pushing etc but many ND students are already at the brink of burnout by the time they even start university. And then , used to blaming themselves for any issues they try to keep their head down and get on with it especially if they're supposed to be 'smart'. But it just keeps getting worse.

There's quite a lot to unpack here.

Here's the Open University calculator for grades

https://lucyparry.github.io/degree-class-estimator/

Weighted heavily towards third year so can pull the class up if that's a strong concern.

I actually don't know what they'll translate transferred grades as (anyone know? Or contact them and find out).

Grades tend to be a mix of coursework and exams. I can give more info by DM if needed as relative did this.

Plus advantages for mental health as she can live at home and do this part time. She can access your local uni library through the SCONUL scheme.

(I just had a look at some of the Cambridge exams and the maths is interesting but heavy and - as you'd expect - very dense and focussed at a particular kind of intense learner.

Honestly, you really could be incredibly competent and top range in the country and still really struggle with this!).

May be worth doing a flow chart of pros and cons of different options and then make an informed decision.

Ultimately it will work out fine!

@CamQuestion has outlined a great exam strategy and even if you needed to post module details at some point people could comment to help out (I fancy embarrassing myself with some fluid dynamics :-D)

Everyone has a point of view which is worth taking into account - I'd say to just get to the end of undergraduate, have that qualification "in the bank" then have a well deserved holiday or chill time and reassess.

(without worrying about the bigger stuff).

As everyone has said, your daughter has loads going for her and clearly is very talented and committed with time on her side.

I'm sure if we could all go back in time we'd tell our younger selves to just chill out a bit as we have SO MUCH TIME to explore things.

I wasn't clear but I think she should switch from doing a degree to doing an apprenticeship, rather that continuing the degree. I know it is Cambridge, but it sounds like it has been an up hill struggle for a while now. There is no shame in taking a different path. She should not look on it as failure, merely a course correction. At this age she still have lots of really great options.

CamQuestion has outlined a great exam strategy

A caveat to that... by chance this strategy of focussing on exam papers and ignoring lectures came up in discussion with our young aerospace engineer friend recently. We were surprised, and DH asked him if he ever referred to his own lecture notes. The answer was 'yes, most days'. So while it may be a good plan for those who don't want to be engineers and/or just want to get through the exams somehow, the idea that somehow the lectures are a waste of time may be misguided.

@nottherenoe "(I just had a look at some of the Cambridge exams and the maths is interesting but heavy and - as you'd expect - very dense and focussed at a particular kind of intense learner.

Honestly, you really could be incredibly competent and top range in the country and still really struggle with this!)."

Thank you so much for saying this. That really helps. I don't think some people have any idea how hard this course is both in breadth and density.

From a practical point of view - if your DD is about to start exams then it may be better for her to simply put her head down and get through the next few weeks as best she can. Unless she is really unwell talking about alternatives at this late stage may just distract and disrupt her. People have made a lot of potentially interesting suggestions (including apprenticeships which I also suggested) but she is probably not in a good state just now to think them through and change direction.

For most students, if it's at all possible to do so then getting through the exams somehow and drawing a line under it and moving on is healthier than dragging it out with MCs and intermissions (or whatever Oxford call them). Even if she dosen't pass. So if she's not suicidal I'd put on a brave cheery face and tell her that whatever happens the exams will soon be over, then she can relax for a bit, see how the results turn out and then it will be time to start thinking about the future.

If she doesn't pass her degree then maybe an apprenticeship would be a good next step (I know someone who is following a similar path) If she does get her degree then she can think about what options she has for employment and education. Maybe talk to the people where she had internships, if she enjoyed them and did well. Or maybe she will want to do something totally different for a while. (Just don't let her hide in her room for too long)

Oh, and I know it's not easy but when you see her remind her that you are very proud of her for getting this far and she has a bright future ahead anywway. Which - just based on what she has achieved so far with internships and passing her courses - she does!

@AmaryllisNightAndDay very helpful. Thank you. I've been discussing with DH as well (who is less liable to panic than me) and he thinks that the best thing is for DD to just bash through and see how she gets on. Today's exam, for example, she thought went ok -- so who knows what might happen. My endless googling has reminded me that 30% of her overall exam grade is taken from how she did in last year's exams... which means she's got even more of a mountain to climb.

I was in this position about 30 years ago. Got a 3rd in physics from Oxford. I managed to get a technician ( non graduate) job in a field I was interested in. As they usually sent their technicians on day release to do a btec I asked if I could do a masters instead. Once I had some relevant experience and a masters I was able to get a graduate job. The masters was much less academically challenging than the Oxford course, so not too hard.