Getting a third - what next?

[Selwyngum]

My DD is in her third year at Cambridge, studying Engineering. She hasn’t got on at all well there. She failed her first year exams and got a third in her second year exams. She has just started her year 3 exams and thinks she is on course for a 3rd again, which will mean she can’t progress to do the fourth year (MEng).

She is talking about dropping out and retaking the year. I’m not sure that’s worthwhile as she has worked incredibly hard this year, but just doesn’t seem to get the results.

She has struggled with depression in the past so keeping her on an even keel is much more important to me than any academic results. I want to be as supportive as possible but I’m at a loss.

My gut feeling is that a third class degree won’t get her very far in terms of employment. I’m wondering if she could transfer in September to the third year of an engineering degree elsewhere.

She got 4 A* grades at A level, is very bright but dyslexic. In hindsight Cambridge was the wrong place for her but regretting that doesn’t help her now.

Does anyone have any insight or experience? She feels she’s wasted a huge amount of time and money and I would love to help her work out what to do next. Please be kind.

You need a 2:2 or above to get into teaching

Teaching wouldn’t be for her I don’t think, for a variety of reasons.

From what you’ve said about adjustments, please check she is getting the 25% extra time in exams that all dyslexic people get on this course. It was very common amongst the engineers (must be a brain thing).

Today's exam, for example, she thought went ok -- so who knows what might happen.

That's good news (my dd did this degree including finals at home thanks to covid so I've had a ringside seat of how tough it is).
Hopefully she'll feel a bit better about pushing through now.

Heck yes I hope so, they're very time pressured exams.

These are what the model answers look like. It’s still a LOT of work to understand why they’re the answers!

Yes she does get 25% extra time thank goodness.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for your daughter. Hopefully she is just being pessimistic and she will do better than she thinks. Presumably there is the possibility of her getting a better class of degree.

Glad to her her exam went a bit better. I hope things go well for your DD!

As she struggles with depression, teaching is not a good suggestion, sorry.
I speak from personal experience and have known many depressed teachers and ex-teachers.

Agree with this. All is not lost with a third.

She will still have options and has 2 internships on her cv.

@Selwyngum I have read all your posts but not all of everyone else's. I just wantedto say how hard it was supporting my dyslexic/ND DC through higher education.

In my DC's less prestigious unis, leaving after 2nd year would still give a qualification (equivalent to HND I believe). Obviously Oxbridge may be all or nothing but it might just be worth checking in case she doesn't complete?
I think unis tend to keep it quiet.

Lots of companies have jobs in engineering asking for HND/degree. OK they aren't chartered but so what? She can start there, especially with her good work experience.

Some companies like Renishaw aren't that concerned about chartered status and have teams made up of graduates, people who have come up through apprentice route and chartered engineers.

My DC did not complete masters but has a lovely job partly due to solid workplace experience. Good luck to your DD.

is anyone's Mumsnet playing up so they are posting at random usernames, then can't delete them 😶

Also can't really easily see the model solutions .. Gauss solenoid method and some linear algebra I think @CamQuestion ? And I understand the Oxbridge exams are big on proving and knowing things from first principles, that's hard going!

Well done mini @Selwyngum on resilience!

As everyone says, these exams are so incredibly tough and extreme, IF she eventually decides to progress into any of the "hard" quantitative fields (say data analysis or finance or even another scientific area) she'll have a great head start as she has the natural ability to "get" the key concepts.

So she can get linear algebra and orthonormal vector bases, so she can grasp Principal Component Analysis immediately probably did that in first week

It's like she's currently running daily marathons (phew!) and after this she'll mainly be expected to do weekly 5k runs.

But I'm definitely agreeing with the Happy Squiggly career school.

The job market is changing so fast that keeping an eye on what's current tech frontier and taking time to get proficient at that (which can be done virtually free and from home) may be a good option.

There's some areas which are oversaturated and oversold (eg coding or cyber security) but with time on her side she can just try different things out.

My acquaintances who went this path basically just used the free (or super cheap) resources and enjoyed the journey.

If someone is maths minded most of this stuff will be easy to grasp if they put the time in

I'm actually boring younger relatives to death by trying to get them to begin with AI stuff as I want them to have a head start.

What do you mean by 'AI stuff'? Using ChatGPT? 🤣🤣

There are lots of good jobs in Engineering companies, away from the big grad schemes. Does she like the practical hands on side of Engineering. I was speaking to someone who is a financial director for a Engineering company and they are always looking to recruit Engineers with all kinds of qualification. They are especially keen on people with practical skills. I know someone with a Beng ( hated her degree, said it was all Maths and not much Engineering!,never went on to do the Meng) is now in a technican level job and is very happy. There are jobs and success away from 1sts and ultra competetive grad schemes.

What do you mean by 'AI stuff'? Using ChatGPT?

I'd imagine she means more Scikit-learn to begin with.

This posters advice is thoughtless and out of date. Many employers have dropped specific degree requirements in the last 5 years. Your DD will absolutely still have options.

Seriously, 'AI stuff', machine learning... someone has to develop it, and that's going to be not just 'people who code' but people who understand horrible maths plus, in some cases, specific domain knowledge, who can do the right sort of coding. I write scientific software...these are who we're hiring at the moment.

@nottherenoe

is anyone's Mumsnet playing up so they are posting at random usernames, then can't delete them*😶

Are you sure it's random??

If you use multiple devises and name change then you have to log out or close the app on secondary devices for the name to register.

Also, in order to stop sock puppet'ing if you post on a thread you've already posted on it will automatically use the original name you used on that thread. However this only works on the app.

Why are you imagining? That's what many people think of, when they mean AI. Prompt engineer is even a real job now.
Using ML tools also isn't going to give anybody a useful head start in anything, as it abstracts too many of the fundamentals.
Understanding the principles of data and programming would be a better use of time. Especially as the people developing models have advanced degrees , a bigger market is those dealing with the data pipelines, embedding it into current systems, etc.
The former will learn all of the basics and more in their degree(s) so really no advantage here. It's not the sort of thing that you can self-teach into.

What @Winningatpatriachychicken said.
Here's an example from the real world:

"Key Requirements
Candidates will need to have relevant industrial background in mechanical design and/or be degree qualified in an engineering, mathematics or scientific discipline."

Obviously experience would be needed. Lots of paths.

@SnipRefusersSpouse What does “degree qualified” mean? Often a BA which isn’t recognised by the Engineering Council (as in this case) might not be considered when other candidates have a qualifying degree and experience.

And many haven't. When my DS was applying for jobs. He told me almost all of them had a box to tick saying you had a "2.1" at least.

In that particular case, as the requirements aren't specifically for an engineer just someone technical/numerate, I'd take a guess that it doesn't matter so much?

Some jobs are more about right general skill set and aptitude. There's all sorts of roles that get overlooked. E.g. (not necessarily relevant for the OPs DD, just an example) in many technical organisations QA/QC is absolutely crucial and requires intelligent, technically able staff.

No, it’s not out of date at all. The OP’s daughter is going to be severely limited, in terms of obtaining jobs and post graduate study, if she gets a third. Sure, the cachet of having a degree from Cambridge will help a little, but not much.