Getting a third - what next?

[Selwyngum]

My DD is in her third year at Cambridge, studying Engineering. She hasn’t got on at all well there. She failed her first year exams and got a third in her second year exams. She has just started her year 3 exams and thinks she is on course for a 3rd again, which will mean she can’t progress to do the fourth year (MEng).

She is talking about dropping out and retaking the year. I’m not sure that’s worthwhile as she has worked incredibly hard this year, but just doesn’t seem to get the results.

She has struggled with depression in the past so keeping her on an even keel is much more important to me than any academic results. I want to be as supportive as possible but I’m at a loss.

My gut feeling is that a third class degree won’t get her very far in terms of employment. I’m wondering if she could transfer in September to the third year of an engineering degree elsewhere.

She got 4 A* grades at A level, is very bright but dyslexic. In hindsight Cambridge was the wrong place for her but regretting that doesn’t help her now.

Does anyone have any insight or experience? She feels she’s wasted a huge amount of time and money and I would love to help her work out what to do next. Please be kind.

To the posters challenging my statement- I'm literally an expert in early talent and I know the extent to which many employers are moving away from degree classification requirements.

Finding a single example where that's not the case doesn't invalidate my argument as I said MANY not ALL.

Sorry if that doesn't jive with your belief system and means you don't get to stick the boot in.

@ErrolTheDragon Yes. The quote is a bit vague. They might take a variety of degrees. However they then are not recruiting engineers for a professional pathway. It’s interesting that people still think anyone is an “engineer” when they would be appalled that a random technical person could be a Doctor! The Engineering Council has never taken this lack of respect and understanding seriously.

I do think Cambridge might be different to many other engineering degrees but not necessarily different to Imperial. It’s also not necessarily designed for grads who are wanting academics and a more practical application. Therefore even the brightest dc should evaluate what makes them tick. Grads from other unis are just as successful and ready for work without such stress.

Firms need a range of talents. They don’t need 100% maths engineers without practical understanding of the problems to be solved. Many engineers are not gifted academically but are still great engineers. If anyone is interested, look at the requirements for being Chartered, Incorporated and Technician on the Engineering Council website. The whole profession might become clearer.

@TizerorFizz - yes...it'd be interesting to know what the actual job title for that was, 'Candidates will need to have relevant industrial background in mechanical design and/or be degree qualified in an engineering, mathematics or scientific discipline."' doesn't look like it's 'recruiting engineers for a professional pathway' but may still be an interesting and useful role within an engineering company.

OP,

I was afraid from your earliest posts that your DD fad not sought help for her dyslexia at university and that this might make a Mit Circs petition referringvto it difficult. The extra exam time she receives shows that she has engaged to a reasonable extent. If she does need to submit a Mit Circs petition and dyslexia plays a role, this is suitable evidence. (I sat on our Mit Circs panel for several years)

@ErrolTheDragon I think the DD in question will still need to think about the best route to take after her degree. That type of job could be one but her degree is going to make life difficult every way you look for getting professionally qualified. Most higher paying roles ultimately want this in engineering. Sideways careers won’t. So a careers evaluation and looking at alternatives is a good thing to do. I’m not sure aerospace is now possible unless she can work out how to get in.

The poster earlier said DD was a technician after a BEng degree. That’s almost certainly a recognised degree. However trying go to get a foot on the bottom rung might be possible. Looking at where she interned might work. Looking at any numbers job might work.

@Selwyngum I have similar concerns re my dd, although she's only 2nd year and at an RG uni. She's had a complex mix of mental health issues and undiagnosed ADHD, and is on a third for her first half of year 2. I've suggested, as a back up, pulling out after year 2 exams and seeing if she can at least get an exit qualification (HND or something similar) so the years aren't wasted. Then try to get on a degree apprenticeship (she wants to do OT or another healthcare qual). She also has As and an A star at A Level and relevant experience, so I think she'd be a strong candidate to get an apprenticeship. I'm sure she'd do better being mainly work based, with small amounts of time for structured learning, and having the accountability of an employer looking at her exam results!

Your dd is in a similar position really, except she's a year ahead. Would she be willing to look into what she'd get if she left the degree? Would there be some certification of the work completed up to year 2?

What is being forgotten here is that the DD is very able. I appreciate Tizer has a hotline to employers. However like Universities, many employers will be looking beyond grades, for potential, and that, as long as she regains her confidence and equilibrium, she has in spades.

One issue with high achieving kids is that they may not experience failure till quite late on. DS was possibly lucky despite a 4xA* prediction, to receive three rejections (UCL, Cambridge and Warwick). All his peers had offers whilst he was waiting on the ever dilatory LSE. This first experience of rejection, in his eyes failure, hit him surprisingly hard, but he was still at home and had both family and school support. Things worked fine in the end. He has recently been looking for his first post PhD job, and honestly I think we were as upset as him when a couple of promising opportunities did not pan out. He remained optimistic that he would get something and he did.

There is a golden path from top table in primary to entry to a selective secondary or top sets, top grades, Oxbridge, good degree then sought after grad scheme. The process can churn out people who are perhaps less rounded or resilient than you might want. (And in some cases with a level of unwarranted arrogance. The right school and the right University does not mean that you have proved yourself.) A couple of blips en route, though painful, may actually be a good thing. Learning to accept disappointment by saying "what is the worst that could happen" and then realising that Plan B is a perfectly acceptable alternative, is a useful skill to have. What most people want is for their DC to be happy, and I have come across a few people whose DC stop for the first time in their late 20s look around and wonder whether that high paying City job or whatever else they landed at the end of the golden path, is what they actually wanted and/or want to be doing for the rest of their lives.

I asked DS, who has just completed a PhD at a high ranked US University what he thought was the main benefit from having been at a well known and very academic secondary school. Apparently it was that he was never top of his class. Indeed he started A levels in the sixth math set. In contrast many of his high flying peers both at Undergraduate and Postgraduate level have always been top of the class, until inevitably they reach a level where they are not. Often with a real wobble as they try to work out how to cope both with challenging material and with the realisation that others are more talented. DS observes them but is able to plough on. He has got a lot further than he might have been expected to, in part because his expectations were flexible and were never set at a specific high point.

I suspect that this is a real problem. Lots of big fish coming from smaller ponds, and a need to accept that rather than being the person who got to Oxbridge, you are just one of many who are at Oxbridge. Back in the real world and talented able people, including those who have learned from setbacks, are a valuable resource. The DD may not get on a top grad scheme, but once she regains her equilibrium she will be able to apply at a different/relevant entry point, explain that University had been difficult but that she now understands why, has made the appropriate adjustments, has a five year plan of where she wants to go (Open University, a year out to take a Masters with entry based on practical experience, whatever) and wow them. Employers are not just hiring the first or whatever they are hiring the person and the contribution they will be able to make to their business.

(End of rant!)

https://renishaw.wd3.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/Renishaw/job/Wotton-under-Edge-UK/Design---Development-Engineer_R6779

The job title is Mechanical Design Engineer. It's not an entry level job. It's an example of how some companies look more broadly at the skills people have and the mix across the organisation.

Please don't be snarky and come back with, "That's not a chartered role... You need a 2:2 for their grad scheme etc."

The OP knows that. And so does her bright DD. The title of the thread is "What next?" Not please hit me round the head with what isn't possible now.

Snip Dhs firm is like that too, they have people working with and without Chartered status in engineering roles and a lot of mathematical engineering roles which require a degree and are working on very interesting and academically challenging projects. Not the place to go if your aim in life is to make yourself as rich as possible. But you can also do a few years there then increase your pay considerably by switching to finance if money is a key driver. My DH has worked in engineering roles all his life and doesn't have Chartered status, was an academic at Imperial before and his colleagues have different routes in as well. And they are very inclusive so someone with dyslexia would be able to progress and adjustments would be made. They have a big shortage of engineers there. And I think the OPs DD needs more confidence not less and to ignore negativity unless its constructive.

This, in spades.

I see it everywhere: students, colleagues, family.

Also those who aren’t afraid to work, ask (appropriate) questions and get help as necessary have a huge advantage. A somewhat ephemeral part of this is the self confidence that results.

A masters in what though? That’s a key question. If the DD still wants engineering that’s still virtually impossible as the BA isn’t a qualifying degree. However Masters in something else is. So that would be the discussion I would now have. Get a job, work, see what’s available and plan from there.

I’ll just add: it’s the OP who mentioned aeronautical engineering. As a result it was not clear if the difficulties had been addressed. I also mentioned loads of rules that could be considered. Virtually first post! If the DD is happy to change direction, that makes life much easier but posters keep coming up with engineering jobs which aren’t entry level or suggesting masters which are probably closed off too. So a pragmatic approach is needed but her abilities will see her get into something interesting.

It is, however, a big issue that this country doesn’t recognise just how long it takes to climb the engineering tree or give those with academic qualifications and the necessary CPD to reach the highest level the respect that other professions get. I’ve read any old degree will do, or no degree at all, experience is all you need etc. No wonder engineering grads go into the City!

@Needmoresleep you’ve hit the nail on the head. DD cruised through GCSEs and A levels without really having to work. The struggles with work at Cambridge were a complete shock.

Happy to report that I’ve spoken to DD today and today’s exam went better than expected so she is sounding much more positive. She’s spoken to her tutor who was also very helpful. I told her that routes to chartership via the workplace/OU might be possible and she was very encouraged by that.

I’m really grateful for so many thoughtful and supportive comments on the thread and via DM. It’s made such a difference and has enabled me to give DD some concrete info which she needs. Thank you.

In the pharmaceutical company I worked in (I know it’s a different sector), plenty of people had passes/ thirds- the company trained from school leaving level really but would only hire with a 3rd level qualification. Dh is in computers and only eight of his class (of over a hundred!!) came through with honours but over seventy percent are in computers/ related fields. It’s not a death knell and yes your daughter’s mh is more important. I’d say her lecturers told her it wasn’t important as they could see how it was affecting her

An 'ok' yesterday and a 'better than expected' today sounds like her hard work catching up with lectures is paying off. Whatever the results, it sounds like she's in a better state of mind now which is really good news.

How about going into tech? lots of transferable skills

@Selwyngum

You were sounding sure she would get a third but is it possible she could do better. Some of the boundaries between the degree classifications seemed fairly narrow with some of my kids exams especially ones where an exam was heavily weighted. This was t at Cambridge though.

I didn’t mean to drop this discussion, @TizerorFizz . I agree that when something goes wrong society in general and parents in particular are more inclined than previously to blame universities.

In my School there are periodic meetings between PTs and tutees and mostly PTs are happy to meet with tutees by request. The scheduled meetings incorporate reviews. There is almost never an academic reason for anyone to do poorly. As @MaseratiIsYellow said, poor performance tends to be about MH or disengagement, and of course these are related.

My sense is that students used to expect uni to be difficult. Nowadays fewer do. Many who are used to getting 90% at school can’t cope with the idea that 70% is now an excellent mark and 60% is good. If they don’t see how to begin a problem immediately they just skip it, finding struggle distressful. Of course I am not speaking of all students, but the proportion seems to grow annually.

So in all this monitoring and reviewing, we have to separate out attitude from ability. Almost all of our students could earn 2.1s if they engaged properly, and I suspect this is true throughout the land. I have no doubt that some of the disengagement is the result of failings by the universities, but far from all of it. If students have the ability but not the attitude, at what point should be suggesting that they might thrive better somewhere else? It would be very tricky.

It’s really hard to say whether she might be on track for a 2.2. I think it’s unlikely given that 30% of her mark is made up of last year’s result (which was a 3rd). But at least it’s possible to see a path forward even if she does get a 3rd.

She feels that her emotional flatness is caused by the antidepressants and wants to try to come off them this summer. I’m not sure about that but I’m really glad that she is looking ahead at least.

I think you have a point @poetryandwine and my DD’s generation seems much less resilient than previous ones. I can’t reply at length now but will come back later.

Has your dc contacted student support? My dd had undiagnosed adhd at uni too. The disability team were really helpful.

Your daughter should contact a range of firms within the aeronautical engineering space to see what their entry requirements or whether they have inclusivity policies what would apply if she was awarded a third? Unless I have misread she seems to have been struggling for a while, on and off. Not getting more information about the impact of a third let alone seriously considering whether her mental health will cope seems a dangerous path to tread. Until she knows what her options are outside of Cambridge I struggle to see how she make an informed decision to stay.

Whilst some firms have more inclusive recruitment policies in respect of academics, certain competitive fields will only consider will/be heavily biased towards mathematics/ actuarial sciences, some science subjects and some engineering subjects. For some a BSc in Econometrics or Economics makes the cut but for others it won't. Everyone knows of some exception - their dogwalker's uncle's brother's neighbour is doing well at Lockheed Martin or the magic circle or the bulge bracket or MBB or Big Four (The most inclusive of this group) etc. That's not going to be the reality for most people and pushing that narrative as a reason to continue down the current path is doing nobody any favors.

@Socrateswasrightaboutvoting However there are routes into work by taking a step back. I don’t believe staying at Cambridge is an option.

@poetryandwine Thank you for your considered reply. I certainly can see it’s a tricky area hence my questions. I’m not sure the difficulties are all about attitude. I can see some students just don’t engage but when they really might be on the wrong course for them (eg too maths heavy) and would be better off, and happier, somewhere else, I would have thought that at the end of y2, some students would benefit from such a discussion. With parents if student invited them.

I have known several people leave Oxford. Very very bright people. They could not cope with some of the things you mention but they did complete degrees very successfully elsewhere. Given that we know students are less resilient, and paying makes them feel more entitled to success I fear, I’m surprised there isn’t a formal mechanism to discuss a better route for them that might lead to success. I agree it’s very hard though!

Yes agree there are routes back into work and likely a better fit than staying on in an environment that doesn't seem like a good fit. She has her whole life a head of her and lots of people choose to change tack to get to where they want to be. A more vocational route, supported by formal training/ certification may be a better way.

It’s not as simple as switching in year 2 as there are funding implications.

By the sounds of it op’s dd may do better than expected.