Getting a third - what next?

[Selwyngum]

My DD is in her third year at Cambridge, studying Engineering. She hasn’t got on at all well there. She failed her first year exams and got a third in her second year exams. She has just started her year 3 exams and thinks she is on course for a 3rd again, which will mean she can’t progress to do the fourth year (MEng).

She is talking about dropping out and retaking the year. I’m not sure that’s worthwhile as she has worked incredibly hard this year, but just doesn’t seem to get the results.

She has struggled with depression in the past so keeping her on an even keel is much more important to me than any academic results. I want to be as supportive as possible but I’m at a loss.

My gut feeling is that a third class degree won’t get her very far in terms of employment. I’m wondering if she could transfer in September to the third year of an engineering degree elsewhere.

She got 4 A* grades at A level, is very bright but dyslexic. In hindsight Cambridge was the wrong place for her but regretting that doesn’t help her now.

Does anyone have any insight or experience? She feels she’s wasted a huge amount of time and money and I would love to help her work out what to do next. Please be kind.

Yes for most jobs they require a 2.2 at very very least.

If she wants a job at a company (like most people) she will struggle

What are her plans for after graduating? Does she have a career in mind?
Would a degree from Cambridge be of benefit to her compared to a better degree from somewhere else?

I did badly in my finals but other than excluding some career options and not ticking the '2:1 or above' box, it hasn't held me back.
Many of the engineers I have worked with have HNDs. They are older colleagues who did industry-specific courses at a polytechnic. Some of them are very intelligent.

Could she retake the year, or transfer to different university or course?

Can she apply to some other courses now and see what she gets? Surely it would be easier to get a 2-2 at a lower ranking uni?

What career is she interested in? How about teaching? There is a teacher shortage, and as she has A stars in maths and science A level she will be able to get a job with a 3rd class degree.

We were close to being in this position last year at Oxford for a different subject. There is a lot of talk amongst finalists at Oxbridge pausing their studies at this time of year, which fuels anxiety in others. 3/11 of those in DD's college for her subject rusticated and this might give your DD the breathing space she needs. Could you look up details of how to rusticate (Cambridge may call it something else, but pause studies) before taking the decision to drop out? I imagine it would be very tricky to transfer courses at this stage.

I spent many an evening asking DD if she wanted me to come up and fetch her as she was not in a good state. I only wanted her to get through it and wouldn't have cared what she got by the end. Her exam schedule was brutal and her whole degree was assessed in 8 exams across 15 days. FWIW she graduated with a degree far better than she hoped for at this point last year.

@Selwyngum Im very sorry to read this and it must be a worry.

I am wondering if she might be able to get an apprenticeship. Does she still want engineering work, or would she look at a broader range of work? Obviously a 3rd will be difficult and a BEng limits engineering qualifications too. However that doesn’t mean her skills are wasted. She just needs to maybe find the right role for her but at no more expense.

Don’t forget there might be smaller companies who could perhaps have openings where they ignore degree but would be ok with the A levels. Unfortunately even a 2:2 limits professional opportunities but I would try and look at roles that are allied to engineering, eg planning, surveying, finance, building services, technical support, etc and play to her strengths. Try and be clear about where her strengths lie. See if she can look for jobs for post A level students.

Not sure if that’s of any help and it’s a very difficult time I’m sure.

Do Cambridge have a fall back course thinking business or something that they steer those who are on track for a third towards so they can graduate with a 2:2 or higher? Would she consider this?

Or conversion masters in something else?

Some employers don't look at degree class (for widening access) plus they have their own testing. She could get career advice from Cambridge.

it doesn’t matter too much if she doesn’t get a 2:1 but she does need a 2:2 really. I would see if she can retake the year at a different uni to get her more on track. No point retaking at Cambridge if she isn’t doing well there.

@Newgirls A 2:2 doesn’t help much. Most employers want a 2:1 or first. BEng from anywhere is going to limit professional engineering qualification to IEng. Cannot be CEng without a masters, integrated or stand alone. I think that’s not possible. However starting again via an apprenticeship might work or an alternative career.

This. I work in an engineering firm and sometimes I'm a bit taken aback when high fliers in the industry send me their CVs and they have minimal qualifications. There are other routes in. Does she want to be an engineer? What sort of engineering?

Does she want a career in Engineering? If not specifically, her degree will be sufficient to secure a job but probably not on a grad scheme. Can she secure an internship for the summer?

Is there a possibility that she won't get a third.@Selwyngum ? I am being negative but I can remember a high-flyer failing his finals and not getting a degree at all. I don't know the ins & outs but I think the student did not attend one finals exam.

Could she or she and you meet with a tutor to discuss her options if you haven't already?

The bit that worries me is the depression. A third, pass degree or a fail might be a big setback.

So sorry to hear this. I would discuss it with Cambridge to see what the options would be.

My experience is historic and economics rather than engineering but a girl in the year above me got a third and was really struggling and she changed (may have been forced) onto part 2 management and I think she was OK on that. I am not sure what she struggled with but there would be a lot less maths /stats but not sure that would still be an option but it got her a degree in economics and management and it was graded on finals alone. Law was another popular one to change on to but they had 2:1s. Obviously if it's engineering only she wants to do probably not best option but if it's say the maths she's struggling with might be worth looking at.

Thanks for the replies. She’s interested in aeronautical engineering. She does have a couple of internships under her belt. She hasn’t applied for internships this summer because she wanted to focus on the exams rather than on applications.

She could possibly retake the year but I really don’t know if she’d get through it even after that. She’s already a year “behind” having had to have a year out for (unrelated) health reasons previously. So that’s made it hard for her socially as most of her year group has already left.

She can’t transfer to business AFAIK - she does a business module already and finds the essays really tough.

It’s hard to know what she’s struggling with. I think the sheer quantity of highly abstract material. She definitely wouldn’t cope with an essay-based subject. Her supervisors don’t seem to care in the slightest. It seems to be very much “sink or swim”.

Has she talked to her tutor or to her head of department or whoever deals with this in her department. She won't be the first student in this situation and she won't be the last.
Is the university aware of her MH issues. Oxford and Cambridge do not like their students to do badly hence their use of the justification system which allows them to have very low drop out rates compared with other unis.
Your daughter is obviously extremely bright and that's not going to change even if she ends up with a third. Do you think she might be being pessimistic though?
A 2:2 or third does restrict job choice. A lot of employers and grad schemes have a 2:1 requirement as many PP have pointed out but even so there will be a job for your daughter somewhere. All my adult kids friends have found something even the lad that completely bombed at uni and didn't complete any degree.
It much be extremely stressful for you though.

Even if she gets a third I bet she could find somewhere where she can do a masters. Even if they stipulate a 2:1 minimum requirement or whatever I bet there will be somewhere that would welcome her.
She needs to know and you need to know that there are going to be lots of opportunities for her even if she does get a third. It won't be as easy as if she got a higher grade but she will be ok.

One of my DC dropped out of a masters and worked in a restaurant for the rest of the year and was worried it would be seen as a bad thing by employers but it didn't seem to matter at all. She ended up on grad scheme at one of the big four.

@Selwyngum So you are saying she numerate but struggles with anything written. Forget law or anything similar. She needs to look for something with numbers at its heart.

@idontlikealdi Many people are promoted and earn well, but to be a Chartered Engineer you must be MEng these days. BEng undergrad usually requires a MEng on top. Whatever high flyers call themselves, these days they won’t be CEng without the necessary academic qualifications. People can do really well without much academics at all. A friends DS is a land buyer for a building company. Doesn’t need any qualifications at all. To be an aeronautical engineer you do. It’s possible there are other routes into BAe but their IEng or CEng stream will have degrees. This is why looking sideways or taking a step back could help.

In DHs engineering consultancy, no one could possibly be high flying without the required qualifications. Simply not possible.

I think she needs to talk to her Tutor. A third from Cambridge in engineering is probably the equivalent of a 2.1 somewhere else but whether employers account for that is a question for her department at Cambridge.

They should be best placed to advise her and talk about what other graduating students have gone on to pursue in similar situations. Cambridge also has a dedicated careers service so they could also be a good avenue to explore.

I’m sorry that she is struggling and I hope you both find a good way forward.

@FayCarew exactly. All of this. I think she feels that she’ll get a third but I don’t know.

Back in my day it would have not stopped you getting a graduate job (😉) but probably more competitive now. My good friend who is very bright did not do well at uni but is now top dog in a very well known international engineering company.

There are still jobs out there for students who do the 3 year degree. Yes if they want to become chartered it takes longer but it’s not impossible. They can become incorporated without a masters.

Is she wants to stay in engineering maybe look at one of the less over-subscribed areas such as Civil Engineering

I’m really surprised the tutors ‘don’t care in the slightest’. What makes her say that? Has she met with them/ her director of studies in person? What help does she think she needs? What does she want/ expect them to do? I’m an academic and we really do want our students to do well. But you can lead a horse to water, etc.

I got a 2.2 from Cambridge (got a 3rd in my first year and then switched subjects). While I struggled (mostly due to imposter syndrome) the real reason I didn’t do well is I stuck my head in the sand for 2.5 years and only pulled my finger out right before my finals at which point it was a bit late. I also got poleaxed by a hard first exam which knocked my confidence for the following ones. It is brutal that the whole degree was assessed on 5 exams over 4 days!

You need to speak to her tutor@Selwyngum . Sooner rather than later.
Her wellbeing is the primary focus.

I would talk to her tutor if supervisors haven't been that helpful. If her dyslexia is causing an issue I don't know but maybe here could help https://www.disability.admin.cam.ac.uk/how-get-support

I think you can still be very successful with a third from Cambridge, I met someone who dropped out of a science degree at Oxford after a year and was on £400k as a director of a listed company. Some doors may be closed but would generally say apply anyway. DH is an engineer and there's a shortage and a big shortage of female engineers.

Just asked DH and he said the CEO of their company when he joined had a third from Cambridge in engineering and it's a fairly big company.

Personally, I think she should crack on and get the degree and get out of there.

I think that she will be able to get a job with a third from Cambridge. Yes, it will count many places out, but I do think there is a general awareness that bright people do end up with 2:2s or 3rds from there.

I believe Carol Voderman got a third from Cambridge.

Anyway, I think the whole Oxbridge thing has become extremely toxic. Crack on and get out of there is my best advice.