Getting a third - what next?

[Selwyngum]

My DD is in her third year at Cambridge, studying Engineering. She hasn’t got on at all well there. She failed her first year exams and got a third in her second year exams. She has just started her year 3 exams and thinks she is on course for a 3rd again, which will mean she can’t progress to do the fourth year (MEng).

She is talking about dropping out and retaking the year. I’m not sure that’s worthwhile as she has worked incredibly hard this year, but just doesn’t seem to get the results.

She has struggled with depression in the past so keeping her on an even keel is much more important to me than any academic results. I want to be as supportive as possible but I’m at a loss.

My gut feeling is that a third class degree won’t get her very far in terms of employment. I’m wondering if she could transfer in September to the third year of an engineering degree elsewhere.

She got 4 A* grades at A level, is very bright but dyslexic. In hindsight Cambridge was the wrong place for her but regretting that doesn’t help her now.

Does anyone have any insight or experience? She feels she’s wasted a huge amount of time and money and I would love to help her work out what to do next. Please be kind.

@Peonies12 , lots of job adverts ask for 2:1 or above. Agencies use it as a filter.
In the field I work in, it filters out capable and intelligent candidates who are older as they would have graduated when the percentage getting a 2:1 or above was lower. It also filters out those with industry-specific HNDs - they will probably be 50+, so it's invisible ageism.

In the 1980s, local technical colleges and polytechnics tended to have HND and degree courses aimed at local major employers.

The popularity of Master degrees now means that a candidate with an MEng/MSc/MA will fare better than someone without. They won't necessarily be the better candidate. IME, they're usually not, but that might be industry-specific.

If you are worried about suicide, which you didn’t mention initially, then you need to act. I guess you want support and not reality but you are now describing the degree as useless. I’ve actually given lots of ideas. Few people posting know about engineering or graduate engineering jobs. I quite like the idea of Staffordshire Masters as suggested earlier but I think none is worthwhile if she’s suicidal. So act now.

CEng via BEng only is possible but you have to get the training job in the first place. In aerospace that could be difficult. Sadly the messenger is being shot.

Yes, @LIZS speaks good sense there. Her Oxford degree really will come in useful later on whatever she does now. Struggling along for more academic qualifications may not be the best priority. Recovery time could be valuable and work experience might stand her in better stead even if it doesn't use her degree immediately.

Very gently, if she is not accepting help that's being offered (which you've referred to in a couple of different contexts), then she hasn't really engaged with those services. It sounds as though she's feeling so overwhelmed at this point that everything is just a muddle for her, but if she can be persuaded to take a step back and actually focus on some of the offered help, she would probably start to see a bit of light at the end of the tunnel.

To whoever it was who mentioned Staffordshire uni, I've worked with several who went there when it was North Staffs technical college. They were all great colleagues and the course was well-respected.

Sure, so if someone comes through an unusual route they may need to highlight things like disability that give them the right to be considered and not be rejected out of hand. And they might be better applying direct to company HR than through agencies. Some engineering companies deliberately recruit some staff outside the box, in addition to using agencies. It's not necessarily a blocker.

What you've described about ignoring the older qualifications is indirect age discrimination. I guess no-one has bothered to bring a case yet.

Yes @Persipan you’re right. She’s sort of emotionally shut down and unreachable. We need to try to get her to address that but we’ve been trying for years and she’s stubborn. It goes back to the earlier trauma.

She has got on well with the internships she’s done and also with a job she did during an earlier pause in her studies, so I am hopeful that she will find her way in the end — she has plenty to offer. It’s how to get there. Lots of food for thought from this thread.

Hi, OP -

I am in the same position as @burninglikefire and also a former Russell Group admissions tutor. I have just seen your thread. No university is right for everyone. We have some who choose to transfer from Oxbridge whilst on 2.2s because they simply aren’t thriving.

I am glad DD is talking with her (personal) tutor, at least. This is most important (a) as this person may know helpful things snd can hopefully offer moral support but also (b) there are many scenarios where DD will be needing a letter from her. Current performance and despair are not issues. A proper recovery from whatever is driving the current situation may be, however.

That could be as simple —- and as psychologically complex —- as properly managing the dyslexia, learning to accept the necessary help for it, etc. Although other unis won’t be as intense as Oxbridge, RG STEM is reading intensive. It is very tough on those with dyslexia who won’t get help for it. And the toll the the resulting stress takes on their self esteem can be awful.

Your DD nay have a case for Mitigating Circumstances but it could be tricky. If she has been refusing help for an ongoing disability my uni would be of two minds about this. Her PT may be able to help her judge this. I agree with PPs’ emphasis on following the letter of the Cambridge regulations. And that she will need a good reason - which sounds like it could well be a documented MH crisis - to request to repeat Y3 at Cambridge, if that’s what she wants. The decision must be made ahead of exams.

I suspect she might do better with a clean slate and I absolutely recommend engaging with the Office for Students with Disabilities, which will open the way to extra time on exams and other help. Why would DD not want to play on a level field? She has been running uphill all this time. Of course she is exhausted. Very best wishes to her

@AmaryllisNightAndDay , it would be hard to prove. I'm aware that I might subconsciously discriminating on age, because I suspect that i would favour Sue or Steve with an HND/2:2 and 30 yrs of experience over Ryan or Rachel with a masters and barely any experience.

Apologies for derailing.

Would this be a possibility? No harm in applying if she is interested.
https://careers.ba.com/job/heathrow/speedbird-pilot-academy/22348/64018121712

@Selwyngum I think @TizerorFizz was responding to me without bothering to read my post properly!
@TizerorFizz I clearly stated that I was talking about MY fields - tech and finance, not engineering. We all know you're an expert thanks to you DH company. However not all engineering graduates even want to become engineers in the first place. The OP's DD wants to but given what's happeningthere's no harm in suggesting other avenues as well. The second half of my post was relating to her going to another university and that was where I mentioned engineering with the assumption that she'd get a better grade there, so no issue.

OP, a lot of startups and growing tech companies hire people based on personal interviews. Not only do people know that the Cambridge workload is higher often it's the personality and willingness to learn that's more important.

There are also neuro diversity recruitment consultancies like Enna global that can help.

By the way OP - why has she not gotten a job offer from any of her previous internships?

Hi.

One possibility is that she can intermit.

www.cambridgesu.co.uk/advice/information/academic/intermission/

She can do this at any point, if you are concerned about suicide and she is accessing counselling then it may be an option.

It can be backdated.

I am currently on intermission from a masters at Cambridge with medical evidence.

Her personal tutor may not be well informed about these processes - mine was not and I got more help from my department.

If she has dyslexia or similar then if she intermits it may be worth a DSA application as they can provide study support etc.

my DD has adhd and has study support once a week which is basically someone to kick her up the bum and help her organise her work - I will do assignment A on Monday sort of thing.

Exams - if she does go ahead and take them then it may be possible to do them in a private room. I was very ill in my first year and sat my exams in my senior tutor's room.

It is possible to do ok in the exams without learning all the material - in some ways the degrees at Cambridge have so much material that working out where your time is best spent is a very useful skill. You can't learn it all and it isn't worth trying.

Uh, maybe because they'd presumably have been in the first two summers of what's usually a 4 year degree? I don't think anyone would expect a job offer at that point. Getting a good internship in the first summer is actually quite hard for engineering students (most companies want 2nd and 3rd years) so she did well to get that.

I think she should stick at it even if she gets a third as at least that is a Cambridge honours degree. her 4 A stars at A level will also be very impressive on any CV, Most good jobs require a 2/1, but not all. My oldest son who didn't go to oxbridge got a third class honours degree. He is changing jobs at the moment and he had second interview via video call from my house yesterday. We were all prepared that they may ask about degree etc (he does not have the grade on his CV) and how to explain it but they did not even mention it! He is the only one of my 4 children who is not a solicitor (the last 2 qualified this year) so I know quite a bit about law applications including for those who didn't do law as a first degree and for most law firms it would be material to have a third and probably exclude a lot of people.

@MaseratiIsYellow I would hope that 40 years plus of recruiting engineers does actually mean something. Maybe not? I agree lots of engineering grads don’t want to be engineers. @ErrolTheDragon disagrees with this. You and I think otherwise. That’s why I suggested lots of different options but the OP said DD wanted to be an aeronautical engineer. So possibly another career is not being considered. It seems more important to me that health issues are now paramount. Surely if op thinks DD is suicidal then exams are not the first priority?

Lots of smaller companies do like to offer some work experience to students. DH has offices near three top class engineering unis and all are pleased to see students. Their web site says so. Also 6th formers. They are potential employees. Larger companies are more structured in their approach but this could also be a way of getting a job if she can finish the degree but of course companies do see other students so it’s not a given that any of this leads into work.

But many degrees offer the MEng on top - otherwise you graduate with a bachelor's degree. That would entitle you to apply for jobs in other industries. Are you saying that an aerospace engineering job will only hire people with the MEng?
If not, it may be worth her reaching out to them once she graduates even with a non-Master's degree. If they were impressed with her regardless of degree class.

Or even if she's made good contacts there to informally ask for their opinion. Once she's in a better place of course.

Well I guess the key question here is what she should do now. If possible taking a break (whatever fancy term they have for it) is the best option. She can use the time to explore her options and decide what she wants to do next.

The next question - is she capable of continuing at Cambridge and getting a 2:1? If not, would she rather a 3rd from there or a 2:1 from elsewhere.
Alternatively as PP said get a MEng from somewhere else.

It also depends on whether this whole experience has put her off studying and exams. She might decide that in the light of all this she doesn't want to be an AE engineer after all. Which would be quite a shame!

Also OP can you afford any private help? Is counselling from the university the only support they'll provide?

You also mentioned her doing nothing but working that can't be good for her MH either.

Health first! The DD cannot realistically assess her options until she has a good idea of her capabilities. She needs to be in a fit state if mind in order to do this

But many degrees offer the MEng on top - otherwise you graduate with a bachelor's degree. That would entitle you to apply for jobs in other industries. Are you saying that an aerospace engineering job will only hire people with the MEng?

This specific degree - and many engineering degrees - are 4 years as standard now. The organisations hiring interns know this. Getting a job offer during the first and second summers would be unusual. That's all I was saying - you were questioning something that was completely unremarkable.

Yes, they can leave after 3 years with a bachelors degree which absolutely is a valid qualification. I don't know about who the aerospace industry hires. From the single individual I know I would guess their grad schemes would be able to select from candidates with good MEng degrees. However - that doesn't mean there aren't decent jobs within this industry at other levels.

The poor girl is in the throes of bloody stressful exams (apparently it's not unknown for some to read the first question and burst into tears), this is such a hard time for her to be thinking about anything straight. I wish I could offer good advice but I honestly don't know whether, right now, she should try to finish her exams or intermit.

It may be that after this immediate period she should think about the other options - not all people who do engineering degrees can or should attempt the 'chartered engineer' pathway. She may be able to find a position within the aerospace industry, but there are all sorts of opportunities for highly numerate intelligent people (various sorts of 'tech' and software for instance).

Deep breath.

Let her do the exams. Don't muddy the waters with what ifs and what nexts. Encourage her on the path she is on at the moment. "You're doing so well". "Concentrate on the exams". "We can think about the next steps after".

Don't give her alternatives now, it's way too overwhelming.

She has had successful internships, she has great A levels, she has a good foundation of knowledge from her degree so far (even if she doesn't think she does). She will find if she does transfer elsewhere - if that is the decision she eventually makes, what she has already done will be massively helpful.

This is not a disaster!

I agree the DD can move forward once she is in a positive frame of mind, no matter what happens. But if she takes her exams and gets a Third, she will have a difficult time transferring onto an MEng programme and in fact Cambridge may insist she graduate with a BEng. That is our policy and the policy if most places I know.

OP, it sounds like she needs to come away from uni for a bit and get some support for her mental health. There is no point in her staying to get a third, really, and if she struggles so much with the abstract material in her degree, then perhaps aeronautical engineering just isn't the right career choice for her.

There is no shame in that and it's better to admit it to herself and get on track for something that is more within her capability. I think she will feel better if she is doing something that she feels capable of and that she is good at.

I would gently encourage her to consider stopping the course, taking time out (the uni will agree it on medical grounds) and getting some counselling, maybe even followed by a bit of careers advice/ work experience and reflecting on what she actually wants and is good at.

It can feel like the be all and end all at that age to have your whole life planned out, but in reality it's absolutely fine to take a few years to figure it all out.

Agreed. I think it would be better for her to go to the GP about her mental health, tell the uni that she is unwell and defer a year whilst she works things out and gets into a better headspace.

Getting a third will be more demotivating and could cause her to spiral when she struggles to get a job.

@poetryandwine I think the OP recognises this will be a BEng. I think a MEng from a low ranked uni (Staffordshire?) might be possible but is engineering really what she should be doing? There will be a gap in the middle of the degree too if she defers a year. Employers will wonder why. There are other routes into employment that could be a lot better for her but I would be careful about deferring as her bank of knowledge will stagnate. It’s really not easy to advise but surely health comes first?