Getting a third - what next?

[Selwyngum]

My DD is in her third year at Cambridge, studying Engineering. She hasn’t got on at all well there. She failed her first year exams and got a third in her second year exams. She has just started her year 3 exams and thinks she is on course for a 3rd again, which will mean she can’t progress to do the fourth year (MEng).

She is talking about dropping out and retaking the year. I’m not sure that’s worthwhile as she has worked incredibly hard this year, but just doesn’t seem to get the results.

She has struggled with depression in the past so keeping her on an even keel is much more important to me than any academic results. I want to be as supportive as possible but I’m at a loss.

My gut feeling is that a third class degree won’t get her very far in terms of employment. I’m wondering if she could transfer in September to the third year of an engineering degree elsewhere.

She got 4 A* grades at A level, is very bright but dyslexic. In hindsight Cambridge was the wrong place for her but regretting that doesn’t help her now.

Does anyone have any insight or experience? She feels she’s wasted a huge amount of time and money and I would love to help her work out what to do next. Please be kind.

The reality I am afraid.

It sounds like she's under a huge amount of pressure and not having much fun. I think you need to keep reminding her that there is more to life than academic success. She also probably needs some help to keep things in perspective. I'd also be encouraging a transfer. A third isn't really worth having even if it's from Cambridge, but she's clearly intelligent and capable so I'm sure there will be something out there for her regardless of her degree!!

When I suggested going in to another uni to do a third year, she seemed fairly positive about it

I don't think it's possible to redo the third year after the exams though? Otherwise people with lower class degrees would just keep retaking their third year until they got the result they wanted.

The reason they don't is funding - they can't access loans once they've finished a degree. Which is possibly one reason OP's dd needs to think about it quickly - she'd need to fund one, probably two more years herself unless SLC agree under their compelling personal circumstances route - but having a degree would close that route off. It maybe of course that money isn't an issue in which case she could stay for finals and see what happens.

This aeronautical engineering masters at Staffordshire requires a 2:2 but if you read the rest of the acceptable entry requirements it looks fairly flexible. There is even the option of a placement year. If she did something like that she could easily put herself right back on track.

Maybe this isn't of only interest to her but it just shows there are always options.

@titchy Even if funding wasn't an issue I don't think you can't upgrade a degree once you've finished it? Is that correct?

At one of my kids Unis I think you could retake some exams but they were capped at 40%

At Oxford you can rusticate until the day when you sit your last exam. I imagine that Cambridge allows you to do the same, but you need to abide by their rules to the letter.

I think she should drop out and start afresh at a different university on a different course. I think sometimes in life we need to accept that we've given something a really good go but it just isn't going to work out.

Unfortunately she will ideally need a 2:1 in her degree for most graduate jobs. You are not usually given funding for a second degree. Honestly I think it's better to cut her losses and start again.

I chose to stay on my course at uni and struggle through a difficult degree (I wasn't failing but I was miserable). Yes I gained my 2:1 but I lost a lot more, my self-esteem. I also gained long lasting depression and anxiety disorders. I wish I had dropped out and done something else.

If she uses the opportunity as a fresh start, she could end up thriving on her course and her mental health will hopefully improve

OP she's done very well to get in and handle the workload so far. There's no shame in changing track.
Speaking from the perspective of an employer - worked in tech and finance, two fields that take a lot of engineering grads - a third even from Cambridge might close doors.
However, it's more complex than a direct denial.
Major employers are trying to be more egalitarian in recruiting, and so 'university blind'. If the rules specify a 2:1 we won't bend them even for Oxbridge.
However, there's always an option to submit a letter explaining mitigating circumstances - your daughter being dyslexic and potentially having MH issues could be one such case.

There are also smaller companies that will probably be impressed by a Cambridge degree no matter the class.

The only thing I'd be worried about is her completely failing. And this can happen if her mental state gets so bad that she gives up completely, and panics leading to her mind going blank in exams.

This is more common than you think. Less of a problem in other universities where a strong performance over the first 2 years allows for a bit of leeway in year 3. Less so for Oxbridge with so much focus on the final set of exams.

In which case she's better off dropping out and getting better grades elsewhere, maybe somewhere more supportive.

Engineering is one field where university name doesn't give a big boost. She doesn't like essays/business things so is unlikely to go into the schmoozy sort of field where the prestige is important. In any case if you look at top executives, etc they come from a diversity of educational backgrounds. She isn't intending to be a lawyer, banker or politician.

She doesn't seem to have had a great time there so the networking/future powerful friends effect will be nil too.

What would she be happier doing?
Does she have any idea what sort of job would suit her?

The industry I work in doesn't require set qualifications but you can have an entire really interesting career in it. Especially if she's engineering minded.

What industry? Logistics & Supply Chain. Covers everything from factories to trucks to warehouses to shops. All the buildings and IT equipment to make it all happen. Engineering is a great grounding for Supply Chain. No company would turn down a Cambridge graduate even a 3rd.

Happy to chat more if she's interested.

Not at the same institution, but another may well accept you depending on their regs. As I said that would be self funded though.

Smaller companies would not be impressed with a third from Cambridge. They do have applicants from elsewhere who are perfectly good enough and certainly DHs company wouldn’t be impressed. Not that they employ aerospace engineering grads but are an engineering consultancy. They look for much more than the degree but so few get a third, they would be sifted out.

Is she eligible to any support with a DSA? It sounds like she would be, would it help if someone else did her lecture notes for example or she had a study coach to talk to and plan with?

You can become a Chartered Engineer, CEnd without a Masters. You can do a work based assessment route.

I believe that having been to Cambridge your daughter will be ok.

Thanks for that @TizerorFizz 🙄

I got a third from Oxford several decades ago. Back then a lot of people would say "yes but from oxford" accepting that third from oxbridge still counted as a good degree, but these days bigger employers are supposed to be blind to the university and consider a 2:1 from the University of Northeast Wirral to be the same as a 2:1 from Cambridge.

What I did was sign up straight away to a postgraduate degree - although I had a 3rd overall, I had got a 1st class grade in one topic and a 1st class grade in the practical project (sadly not enough to bring my average mark up to a second class degree) and my tutor called friends-of-friends-of-people-met-at-conferences to get me accepted onto a research degree at a much less prestigious university. Once I had a higher qualification the third class degree didn't matter at all.

Good luck to your DD - she wouldn't have got in to Cambridge if she wasn't very, very bright. She will be ok in the long run.

@Selwyngum I have clearly said I’m sorry for you and DC. We can pretend a third is ok but in reality it will limit options. I’ve suggested lots DC could consider. Not quite sure why you are just unhappy with me when most people who recruit say the same. Clinging on to Cambridge hasn’t been the best decision and I hope everything improves.

I’ve never seen a job asking for a specific degree grade. Honestly I’d just get her to do her best to finish and get the degree and go from there. And priories getting any job so she has experience, my degrees have been useless in my career, it’s all about skills and experience

OP

Does she have adaptive software on her computer? Things like read write and text help? It can make a huge difference to producing work.

@TizerorFizz I’m in a state of desperate panic about my child. I’m worried about suicide. Your post of 22.35 yesterday spelling out that companies wouldn’t be impressed with a third (twice) is unnecessary. I was thinking about showing DD this thread but won’t given your post. Please don’t come back and tell me what I already know.

I think people suggesting transferring elsewhere/starting over are underestimating the financial and practical barriers to this. She wouldn't be funded to start afresh, and it's generally surprisingly difficult to transfer credit. In my experience the one place that is extremely chill about credit transfer is the OU (although even they may not transfer all previous study to a named degree, although generally you can transfer all of years 1 and 2 towards an open degree). I think - although you will need to check this, please don't rely on my recollections - that it would even be possible to transfer in years 1 and 2 of a degree you'd completed, and just do a unique 120 credits at level 3 to complete a degree with them - the marks of transferred work would be irrelevant, the degree classification would come down to the level 3 work done with the OU.

Thanks for all the supportive comments which I really appreciate. I can’t respond to everything but DD has engaged with the disability resource centre and the DSA. Neither has been all that much help. Part is the problem, I’m sure, is that DD is terrible at realising she needs help and also accepting it.

She does have a nest egg having inherited some money from a grandparent. Which could be used to fund another course. I just don’t know if that’s what’s best. I know that the amount of student debt she has accumulated to get a potentially useless degree (or none at all) is playing on her mind.

Has she considered starting a degree apprenticeship? Working and studying at the same time doesn't suit everyone but it can build confidence and the more applied focus suits some students better.

And, is she getting all the support she needs for her dyslexia? Assistive tools, maybe some extra help to stay organised, and help with study skills?

A degree (especially at Oxbridge) is a different study skillset from most schools. Not all students come well prepared for that and they don't all pick up the skills just by being there.

If she gets a third from Cambridge it is not useless long term. It might seem a disappointment and barrier now but a few years down the line it will become less of an issue. If she can complete her exams , take a break to get support for her mh then apply for roles which do not require a 2:1 or even a degree she can move on. Maybe a course will be a possibility in future or an employer would support her to pursue further qualifications, but this should not be her priority now.