Misery at Exeter

[ExeterWoes]

Looking for perspectives really. And I've namechanged as I had a very identifying thread back in the day...

My daughter was thrilled to get A's at A level and get her firm choice of Exeter uni. She's been wanting to go for years and when we visited on offers day she was really excited at the thought of going there. We went to all her offer uni open days and Exeter won her heart (offers were from Sheffield, UEA, Sussex and York as well as Exeter). She worked really hard because she was so focussed on getting her offer grades.

I took her there on Saturday, she moved in to her room in her chosen halls - great room, great view, everything she was hoping for. Flatmates seemed a bit unfriendly but we wrote it off as nerves.

She has just called me in tears and is hating it. She feels like it really isn't the place for her. She's been out with people, she's talked to loads of societies, she just totally feels like a fish out of water. For the record she is quite alternative looking - short hair, piercings, a few (small) tattoos, dresses in baggy tees, combats and sweatshirts. She feels she really doesn't fit in and is not feeling very welcomed by either her flatmates or any of the societies she's been interested in. She's also gay and very open about it which she feels has made her an outlier in her apartment. She's not sporty and never has been so meeting friends that way isn't an option.

She has already spoken to UEA which was her second favourite and they will take her for her chosen course but she has to make the decision by tomorrow midday... which is very soon. Also there's no accommodation left on campus, only in Norwich centre which feels like it could be another mistake if she's away from everyone else. I'm not so worried about UEA itself - I loved it there on the offer visit and I remember saying to her that it felt like a fantastic place to go. I also think she may actually be happier there... just a feeling though, I have no real proof of this.

My son, who is just about to start second year at Sheffield Uni, thinks she should give it another week/two weeks and then drop out and take a year out rather than make a hurried decision to go to UEA. He had a gap year and loved it, loved applying with grades in hand but then he did his A'levels in 2021 and loads of them had a gap year just to have a bit of normal life after covid lockdown times. He also landed himself an ace job in the industry he wanted to work in eventually so it wasn't a hardship for him. He also said he always thought Exeter was a weird choice for her.

She's quite fragile - has had history of self harm and depression and the last thing I want for her is to be unhappy. But equally, I don't want her to rush into something she may regret. Neither my husband or myself went to uni - we are so proud of her but we have no real experience in this.

It's so far away from us too - I can't just get in the car and go to her.

I wish your DD well OP. You sound like a great mum and I hope you enjoy visiting her in Norwich. I can't imagine why she would have any regrets. It's a top 30 University and the current Times University Guide gives it a high score for quality of research. It sounds like she will thrive at UEA and in Norwich - the best of both worlds, a compact and interesting city and a beautiful university campus.

Even the Times university guide mentions the importance of finding a uni that's your 'spiritual home' We should be at the stage in the UK where bright students are looking for their best fit uni amongst the top 30 - not all scrambling to apply to the same narrow list of 5 - 10.

Will you let us know how she's getting on after a few weeks have passed?

Re the OP's last post.... it's funny because you just never know. I visited two unis, Nottingham and Sheffield to check them out. Thing about Sheffield, okay this was the late 80s and it was a bit gritty for my tastes but I was dropped off a motorway as someone gave me a lift and I made it along there. What impressed me was the Rag Mag which was a wonderfully rude bit of humour and delighted my school friends when I took it back, some great jokes in it (I'm a bloke btw and this humour wouldn't necessarily fit post-Brand era). As I went on to the 'better' Bristol, maybe I should have gone to Sheffield instead but the thing is, you don't pick a uni because it has a great rag mag do you!

Likewise, in my year out I did a stint with a conveying solicitor arranged by the school, I was just a clerk. Didn't like my boss, he didn't like me, he never engaged in conversation - seemed to think it was an opportunity for underlings to get their hook in or take advantage. He was a Bristol alumni and that should have tipped me off about what a grey, apathetic place I would later find it... but you don't pass up an unconditional offer to a top 5 uni (as it was then) for such a stupid reason as that, do you. Thing is, you can 'do the right thing' and be rational about your decisions and they can later turn out to be wrong, and your daft instincts if you can call them that were right!

"Thing is, you can 'do the right thing' and be rational about your decisions and they can later turn out to be wrong, and your daft instincts if you can call them that were right!"

It's interesting, so maybe Nottingham and Sheffield were happier? Nottingham's campus always struck me as magical. @NewspaperTaxis

Well, I didn't praise Nottingham, it looked okay but maybe not unlike Cardiff in the mind's eye? Sort of white brick building on a hill, not quite grounded in reality? It didn't seem that right for me and I'm not sure I got an offer. The interviewer pointed out a spelling mistake on my UCCA form which seems to be their way of saying you aren't getting in! Charmers, weren't they.

Like I say, you never know. I thought Manchester would have been a good alternative but then I read the Britpop bio The Last Party and there's someone from Suede saying they lasted a term there, hated all the student 'hobnobs' bollocks in hall, so quit.

I agree with this 100%. Took me a long time to trust my instinct but as I age I seem to be losing it - just when I need it the most.

@ExeterWoes I read this thread with interest and sympathy, because like you I have a somewhat 'vulnerable' child who hates their chosen university and wants to change, although different circumstances. I am so glad that she got to change and did so quickly, and I really, really hope it works out. A few people on the Higher Ed boards seem to have very strong views on the importance of a university's ranking or image, and imo don't quite get that for some young adults, 'fit' is especially important and crucial to their happiness regardless of ranking

A few people on the Higher Ed boards seem to have very strong views on the importance of a university's ranking or image, and imo don't quite get that for some young adults, 'fit' is especially important and crucial to their happiness regardless of ranking

I completely get that. I know someone who dropped out of Cambridge for an Ex Poly which is building a reputation for itself. It was much better to get a first from there, which she did, rather than a nervous break down from Cambridge.

Thing is you (they) don't know if it's a good fit until actually there. I didn't get in to my first choice and went to a uni that had a decent rep. It was beautiful - lovely buildings in gorgeous grounds (in the US). My mother loved it. Attached to a cute New England town. I was miserable. I was too young (17), didn't like the course, my roommate was ok but not ever going to be a proper friend. The course was wrong.
I dropped out took a year out and then went to a prestigious art school. Didn't much like that either but was more mature and saw it as a means to an end so coped with it and stuck it out.
My daughter said yesterday that she does want to be able to say 'I'm at <top name uni>. The reputation/league table standing does carry weight with her. And I confess it does with me too. But it's not the sole factor. She didn't like Bristol on the open day. We are off to Exeter in a couple weeks so we shall see. Applying with grades in hand so will be 19 when she goes - she recognised she wasn't ready to go straight from school.

Can't disagree about Bristol Uni @mondaytosunday but then why is Exeter your next pick, I'd have thought that was even more bland? Hmm, not as bad as Bristol, see my earlier posts on the subject. Are these even Top 5 any more, didn't the Sun Times do a supplement on the unis last week or a fortnight ago?

Problem is, the top 5 unis as they were in my day - Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, Bristol, Exeter - or all in cities that are nice to visit, the parents love it, but not great to live. No real vitality, grit or urgency. I mean, I went to school in Croydon nr London and that had more of a city vibe than any of those places.

You get places like that, Stockhom in Sweden is lovely to visit in Summer but it's not great to live there I understand, the suicide rate is high.

Why go on an open day? Surely it's better to just turn up on a normal day when students are milling around, you get the vibe? Hard to do when it interferes with school, of course.

If you are feeling insecure as a teenager you can feel that a Top 5 is a feather in your cap but you have to wear that cap for three years and it defines you. It's not just public school people there - and they're not the same as a 'normal' fee-paying school, I made that mistake, it's a different ethos and outlook, you have to fit in with them, they won't fit in with you necessarily - it's also, what you make of the city, the locals, does it float your boat? It may look good in summer but that's when you go home as a student, what's it like in cloudy wet weather? Imagine feeling depressed there, would it be okay or really bad? Worse, say, than at home?

It's like choosing that outfit in the shop window, is it really you, or how you would like to be if you had longer legs and a slim waist? Are you setting the bar a bit high before you even start?

Again, I am not talking about academic ambition here, which is no bad thing in itself. More, academic snobbery and social climbing, which is a bad thing. Also, those high-powered universities (not Bristol imo, it had just seven hours of lectures a week for History and nothing to do on Monday, I never met such thick people in my entire life as at that place) can get quite pressurised and nasty about academic standards, is that a good thing? I mean, if you went to public school and harbour political ambitions or your tribe, then Oxbridge it is , but otherwise....

I'd also choose to go to a university with an exciting neighbouring city, that way you get 2 for the price of 1 over three years. Eg, Manchester is half an hour on the train from Liverpool, so you could get to know two massive UK cities over time. Don't do this if you don't care for either of course, just saying.

She's quite fragile - has had history of self harm and depression and the last thing I want for her is to be unhappy. But equally, I don't want her to rush into something she may regret. Neither my husband or myself went to uni - we are so proud of her but we have no real experience in this.

From this, and your updates @ExeterWoes I don't think she's ready for any university.

Her decision after 2 days based on very little (except the expensiveness of students' parents' cars ... ??) suggests that she's really not in the right place for any university study. I was an External Examiner for a (different) department at Exeter until recently, and I was struck by the way staff turned themselves inside out (at considerable time & emotional cost to themselves) to go way above & beyond in caring for students well-being.

Her behaviour so far is erratic. Her belief that her flatmates are "unfriendly" might be as much her own perception as their actions. Just because someone is "preppy" or "sporty" doesn't make the a bad person (your posts are very chippy about your perception of people's wealth). We all know that we perceive things differently when we're panicked & under stress. She hasn't even started on her seminars etc, where she'll meet lots of people beyond her flatmates.

Good luck - I hope she stays and calms down. But if she doesn't - maybe she needs some time t heal, to mature, and to do something in the working world that gets her out of her own head? A year working, and a new start might be the making of her.

I have seen this happen many many times over my career of teaching undergrads. My view is that a year working or volunteering should be compulsory between school and university.

I did make the UAE typo but my post was encouraging - that my son's friend enjoyed his time there and now works for one of the best UK accountancy firms and has almost finished exams for accountancy - ICAEW.

I hope she does well there.

I am not a fan of loads of gap y ears as real life is very expensive and the sooner you get on with qualifying and then working to support yourself the better.

Lots of students are happier when they switch unis. Let's stop analysing the poor girls : some of it is a bit victim blamey.

girl

@NewspaperTaxis she didn't reject Bristol because it was too bland. It was because there didn't seem to be any heart to the university, the accommodation blocks - we passed about three on our drive in - were quite a distance, and there were no student ambassadors to talk to (they were selling ice cream or directing people to busses). If anything the city was too big. She did enjoy her taster lecture though.
Open days are surely the opportunity to meet and talk to people in the department and students doing the course (which didn't happen at Bristol as I said). We have been to a uni as we missed the open day but the girl showing us around didn't know anything about the degree my daughter was interested in (we did tell them in advance), and no one from the department was available. And it was a six hour drive which put the nail in that coffin!
She has three A stars and A star EPQ. She's equally academic and creative. She says why bother doing something unless you give it your all - maybe she is an a 'academic snob', though she couldn't care less about social climbing. She's not insecure.
And while you may have had a bad experience in Bristol, there are plenty who loved it. As can be said about any university. I'm sure plenty of people loved the first uni I went to - it just wasn't for me.
And we live in London - she's on the tube every day, and sees plenty of grit and urgency! But that's not her thing. She loves the city of Bath, so will apply there as the course is good, and Cambridge is her top choice (and with over 70% state school I don't think it is the public school domain it may have once been). And I'd live in Cambridge - I know non university people who love living there.
She doesn't know about Exeter - that's why we are going to visit. It obviously wasn't a match for the OP's DD, and the point of my post was she couldn't really figure that out til
she was living there.
As for contact hours - while I find it hard to get my head around that as my uni experience was at least 25 contact hours, she anticipates spending time studying - the library is more important than the Student Union/Sports facilities or whatever.
After Cambridge, Bath and possibly Exeter she doesn't know. Didn't get the right vibe from Loughborough (from its website), her old school says Durham but also a distance and is it so different from the offering at Bath or Exeter? She doesn't want London nor Scotland. Manchester? Distance again.
It is a big decision, and it does go wrong. And it is impossible to tell whether sticking it out will lead to eventually settling in or if it's better to cut their losses while there's still an opportunity to go elsewhere. I think for many a gap year allows essential maturing and understanding what they want from life.

Totally agree
Op, your dd really needs to take a year out. She will benefit from this. In fact when I attended open days with dd1, many of the university lecturers looked favourably on students who had taken a gap year or two as they found that these students were more motivated than those who had gone straight to uni after completing A levels/ Btec.

I am a great believer in taking a gap year
In fact I encouraged dd1 to take a gap year as I could tell that she was not quite ready for university.
She took my advice, worked abroad as a volunteer . She then returned to England worked for a few months and managed to save up some money.
She is now at uni and is on course to get a first. She is so grateful that I encouraged her to take some time out.

There are a number of reasons that a gap year can make a young person better prepared for university:

• they get a chance simply to breathe and be, off the educational treadmill. Current children are over-examined, and over-anxious and scared of failure - this last thing gets in the way of their learning
• they can get their heads out of their navels and think of others; most of us were pretty self-obsessed as teens - working/volunteering means that it's not all about us!
• young people 18-20 can have almost like a 2nd adolescence, and also this is a 'delicate' age for some mental illnesses - a year away from pushing themselves and living in their heads can help or be a preventative

And perhaps more than anything: they can reflect on whether university is necessary or even desired by them. Too many young people (especially with middle class parents who feel a bit precarious and uncertain of their own status) are pushed to university almost as a 'finishing school.' Because that's what one does ...

Sometimes, it's fine, sometimes it's a disaster. I'd love to be able to teach students who are in my department and seminars because this is the place, above all others, that they positively want to be.

@mondaytosunday just one thing, most humanities and social science courses do not have huge amounts of contact hours. There are typically a few lectures a week plus a couple of seminars. The point of the lectures is to introduce the topic, and direct the reading/self-study, which is supposed to be 4 hours for every one hour at least. That won't be different in most places.

The irony with contact hours is everyone's parents get upset about them, but a lot of students don't even come to the minimum contact hours now, since the pandemic in person attendance has dropped substantially and a lot of us are looking to have some marks for attendance in the course evaluations as it's so important to actually show up! I would say 1/3 are good attenders, 1/3 are sporadic but ok attenders and 1/3 are just absent most of the time. I ran a course with 2 hour seminars last term, doing lots of extra activities, and all the students said they preferred it with the old format when there was just the one hour! I don't know what the answer is, but I just wanted to address the contact hours issue.

If your dd wants more contact hours, the staff will always be happy to see your dd in office hours, after class or make an appointment, I am anyway.

And here are reasons why a Gap Year can be crap! 😁

1. You have to stay at home for a year, under your parents' feet. This might work if the parents live in a big house and have their own social lives, but otherwise in may be a situation where it's 'Why are you even here any more?' It's the un-paying lodger.
2. In such a situation, well, sex may have to be delayed or put off. Depends on the set-up there, and whether there is a safety valve. Do the rest of the family get out the house much and give the kid space? Do they drive a car? Does that create problems too?
3. It may be the time when the wheels are coming off a family, nasty truths may be about to surface about a failing marriage. Behaviour ignored when distracted by school and school chums may now be hard to set aside.
4. Work may be temping work in an office with no useful productive value. One may regress when in such a situation.
5. Furthermore, when delaying to reconsider your uni prospects, you will only likely take stock of your new development AFTER you've put yourself forward for a new uni, surely? That's how it went with me, I applied again for the following year in around October, but having travelled around the States on a Greyhound, then Interrail in Europe, I still had to go to my choice made before all those experiences.
6. You do have to figure out how to fill that time, or it becomes wasted time. I saved up to travel and I don't quite regret it but I went around by myself, hardly getting the chance to bond with anyone or develop relationships. The skills I picked up had no relevance to being a student really.
7. I guess you are in a way putting life on hold with a gap year. I mean, how and when are you going to fall in love or have that big relationship? And if you do, will you then dump them to go off to uni? What if you actually get a good job? Will you jack that in to go and study just so you can get a 'degree' almost like the Scarecrow being awarded a paper scroll at the end of Wizard of Oz? Being young can be a pain in the arse!

Just to point out, all this discussion about the OP's daughter taking a gap year is rather moot @FarEast because even before you'd posted about that, the OP had announced that her DD had notified Exeter she was leaving and accepted a place at UEA.

Not only that OP's daughter has accepted a place at one of the Universities she had already put down on her UCAS form and had visited, to do a subject which she is passionate about, as opposed to taking an unplanned and unstructured year out to do - well what exactly?

Hi OP your daughter has definitely made a decision that is best for her . Good for her . I really hope she will be happier now and as a Mum ,good for you for being so caring and listening too her.X💐

I guess I just meant advice to give it a few more weeks. I wish she'd at least started her course because this year it was ALL about the course and how amaaaaaazing it was.

This comment really resonated with me - so often when we are unsure about something we bang on about it over and again, telling everyone who will listen how amaaaaaaazing it was / is / may be, when actually we are feeling really insecure about our decision and are trying to convince ourselves it's the right thing to do.

I hope your daughter thrives at UEA - and if she's got mates on campus I'm pretty sure they've got floors she can crash on - that's what my off-campus mates did for the first year 🤣

@NewspaperTaxis goodness! Gap years are not for everyone, for sure. The kids I know who took a gap year either worked to save money to travel and/or for uni, or went abroad and worked, or did a course like my daughter. I don't know any parent who wondered why their kid was still at home! More that they were happy to have them around for that much longer. If working they could contribute an amount for expenses if required. And most parents in my experience seem to be ok with boyfriends/girlfriends staying over once they hit 16, certainly by 18. And some kids actually move out to a house share.
You are right - you have to apply when half way through your gap year, but that's still six months of doing whatever it is as the gap year can start in June after exams. And if it's planned, rather than a gap year due to a change of heart, hopefully something worthwhile has been organised. But even stacking shelves in a supermarket has its value - even if it's just to spur them on to get a degree for better job prospects! Or they may indeed decide against university, and that's totally legit too. I wonder if they are any stats on actual completion of a degree by those who took a gap year compared to those that didn't.
@Highdaysandholidays1 I'm not sure how I gave the impression that my daughter is expecting or wanting more contact hours. I may have trouble with it because in the country I went to uni it was a lot more than here, but SHE's prepared to be spending many hours a week doing independent study, which she is very good at - hence my comment about how important the library at any university is. Contact hours are explained on most university websites, it's not a mystery. I think a lot of kids become unstuck because they are not used to self regulation in terms of research and study. They don't quite get that as no one is going to chase them if they don't turn up to lectures, that doesn't mean they are optional, and a lot of independent work is required.

Best of luck to you and your daughter OP - I hope she finds her niche at UEA. I had the same ‘late nineties Bristol’ experience as @NewspaperTaxis and never really settled there - stuck it out because of the prestige factor but, while I did make some friends, was pretty socially isolated throughout as a working class grammar school girl in a landscape of upper middle class privilege (made worse by the fact that my course, Modern Languages, was one of the ‘poshest’). While I did last the course my grades suffered as I was generally a bit miserable, and I never really found my tribe or made many enduring friendships - in hindsight I probably should have moved to somewhere a bit more diverse and down to earth.

UEA is a good university with a solid reputation, and Norwich is a great student city. Personally I probably would have given the course in Exeter a chance, but given that your DD was considering going there anyway I don’t think it’s by any means a disaster, as long as you instil in her that she now needs to own this decision and embrace the opportunities that UEA offers - sounds like you’ve done this anyway. I hope it all works out and your DD thrives there.

I have to disagree with this decision.i nean to give up after 2 days does not bode well.