We are letting DD down already!

[Festoonlights]

I would really appreciate some wisdom. DD is making her choices for universities. Her predicted grades are AA and A in maths, biology and geography - she is also currently doing a fourth in economics predicted an A although she is thinking to drop econ.

She is passionate about environmental sustainability and loves field work and wants to mix it with ecology etc at Edinburgh or do a straight biology degree. Dh after much research is imploring her to mix this with environmental sustainability with economics as the job prospects are so limited with biology and biosciences/environmental science. He seems to think the job market is tight and badly paid in bio areas. DD does enjoy econ but prefers more fun subjects.

Dd is a bright and capable student, but we are getting very lost as to how to help her make a decision, she isn’t fixed on anything atm.

Battle lines are becoming apparent as dh says environmental stuff is a hobby/ interest not a career. She has ruled out law and most other routes. Any thoughts?

Dh after much research is imploring her to mix this with environmental sustainability with economics as the job prospects are so limited with biology and biosciences/environmental science. He seems to think the job market is tight and badly paid in bio areas. DD does enjoy econ but prefers more fun subjects.

See i thought this was an area of development thats about to explode both financially and in terms of jobs available.

Its a hot area for anyone bright and hard working to be moving into now.

Its the next 'internet boom' type industry which will be driven by sudden increases in demand over the next decade or two.

Your DH is a controlling, ignorant bully.

His job is to support HER career and educational choices, not impose his own views on her.

Has she looked at the Flexible Combined Honours programme at Exeter? There might be something in there that fits.
www.exeter.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/flexible/

Also you are nor letting your dd down. You have done your best to get her to where she is, now that she is nearing adulthood, trust that she can make the right decisions for herself.

Parent of three, secondary school teacher and 6th form tutor here. It makes me really frustrated when parents intervene like this. Often they are misinformed; for example I teach English and some parents try to dissuade DC as they think it’s not good for employability. The truth is that firstly, students need to have a genuine interest in what they are studying and secondly it’s the University that matters. It really should be your child’s decision and your husband should let her choose.

Just to add that Land Economy at Cambridge is not a great course.

I was about to suggest the same as Marchingfrogs for flexible honours at Exeter.

Poetryandwine is absolutely right.
I know of students who did economics within natural sciences at Durham but they did it with maths. Economic modules are available to other specialities but not as a main subject (except of course psychology as mentioned).

I can understand what your DH is saying but a degree like combining biology and earth sciences at Durham would giver her a lot of career leverage especially if she did as much maths and programming for data analysis as possible during it. In the mix of career options an accountancy graduate scheme to get a finance qualification would be open to her if she wanted.

We had absolutely nothing to do with DS's applications, I'm not even sure school did much either, but everything is on the internet and they're pretty good at using that. Having gone to university doesn't help at all either - getting a few brochures through the post and doing an 'UCCA' form 30 years ago isn't relevant.

What I have gleaned is that economics in any combination dramatically reduces your chances of getting into a good university. DS was toying with economics but decided that he'd rather have a top university, especially since he could do lots of the economics & politics bits he found interesting by doing geography, especially at the Scottish universities. He was rejected by Cambridge, but got great offers from all other universities, including Durham.

In contrast a friend's son who's far better qualified - all 9s, awards etc - has had a shocking time with economics, getting rejected from places you'd have thought would be dead certs.

What a trite post.

I don't think your DH is correct about the need to add on Economics, Biology on its own is a highly regarded degree subject, academically rigorous and leads to all sorts of careers which aren't directly related to biology.

There's also always the option of further study once your DD has done a biology degree to specialise in whatever area has appealed to her the most during her 3/4 years of undergraduate study.

I studied Environmental Science at uni (many years ago) and am looking to do a second (land-based) degree now. I would say that careers in this sector are often lower paid, but it is changing, and it very much depends on which area you specialise in. There are now many more opportunities for graduates with this sort of qualification than in the past, and many high-profile (and higher paying) businesses are looking to make themselves more sustainable. For those who want to make a well-paid career in the sector, I would say their are definitely opportunities. Equally, if your DD decides to follow a less 'glamorous' (poorer paid) work path in the NGO or charity sector doing more field-based work, I would still say this is very much worthwhile and think she should be encouraged to follow her passion. What could be better than finding a job you love when you leave uni and having the chance to follow that interest? It is the only time you get that chance before having the ties of family, mortgages etc.

@FarmersWife3 if you do an energy management degree the salaries are good post qualification.
www.totaljobs.com/job/energy-manager/trevett-professional-services-ltd-job98195978

Sorry that should be a masters in energy management not a first degree

I wholeheartedly disagree that you think there’s no decent future in the field she wants to be in. Agree it’s not really your choice. My parents wouldn’t let me go to art college and so I went to a really ‘good’ uni but have always worked in a field absolutely nothing to with my degree… she could show
both of you a ‘roadmap’ of what she will do after her chosen course - where she might apply, what type of projects etc etc. X

Sustainability, Greening Jobs and Green jobs are literally the fastest growing job segments at the moment. I've just written a course on them funded by LinkedIn and Microsoft.

Encourage your daughter to look at how many graduates from a course are actually working in that field. Get her to look at those securing general post graduate jobs too after studying. This should help her to choose wisely and will calm your husband . This information is mandatory on course information.

To keep Daddy happy, surely she should be highlighting how many graduates of her desired degree go on to get places on 'grad schemes' only requiring a decent class of degree in a sector that he would find acceptable? Then carry on with her own career choice anyway when the time comes...

@Festoonlights , is your DH disdainful of your DD's interests to the point that he will refuse to support her financially during her studies? Presumably your household income is way above the level above which only the minimum maintenance loan is claimable? That might be more of an issue for her.

The reality is people never bought homes by themselves. 50 years ago people married in their very early 20's and bought a property jointly. Key workers like teachers didn't buy property by themselves then. I am very concerned about my DC's ability to purchase property but I am also realistic about the fact that very very few people used to buy property alone and it's another generational change in expectation that they should be able to now. All the while having a social life, being fully paid up members of the coffee culture and having holidays - none of those things were achievable for most when I & my husband bought our first house in our early 20's nearly 30 years ago.

Is your DH this controlling in other parts of your lives? It certainly sounds like someone's done a number on your self esteem

It is great, @Festoonlights, you and your DH are being very open to the advice provided on this thread, even if some if it is slightly strident in tone; all of it is well meaning and much of it very, very useful; I have learnt lots!

I think the single most important post has been one by @poetryandwine strongly encouraging your DD to really push that Maths AL into A territory; your DD has her plan in that regard and is on with that anyway, so that is encouraging.

For me, @Letsnotargue's post as a Biology grad working in the sustainability sector is helpful in highlighting there areas of recent (and possibly continuing) job expansion but also areas that are (and may continue to be) less well paid even if rewarding by other metrics; so we need to be wary of sweeping assumptions (eg 'green jobs everywhere'; 'studying economics makes you rich').

'Lets' also highlight that having a rigorous scientific degree (which Biology most certainly is) provides a solid grounding that keeps doors open and can be a launch pad to further specialisation;@thing47 echoes this point. Some bio degrees at some unis can be quite wide ranging (especially north of the border because of the inherent different in approach).

It is not surprising that your DD is drawn to 'combination' degrees (eg joint honours, minors, natural sciences). I have two observation here:

Firstly, demand often outstrips supply in relation to flexible degrees and Natural Science courses at top unis are very competitive; so 'go for it' but perhaps do not pull all eggs in that particular basket.

Secondly, non-traditional degree or module 'labels' can hide a multitude of sins, with some being quite superficial in approach (think 'bandwagon' marketing). Ensuring the degree has a rigorous, analytical core at a uni well regarded for that core subject is one defence against that trap.

In relation to the point above, @sendsummer makes the case very well that your degree (whatever the title and focus) ideally needs to develop quantitative, analytical and communication skills and that degrees with a rigorous scientific core have the added value of 'domain knowledge' that can valuable if you are looking to enter the consultancy sector, for example.

Finally, Land Economy at Cambridge can have quite a legal and policy focus to it and so appeal to some students for that reason, and others less so. My role means I interact with a huge range of professional sectors across most regions of the UK and, as it happens, I recently met a Cambridge Land Economy grad and a Durham Biology grad, both working in well paid and fulfilling roles in the land management and environmental consultancy areas; again proving that it is important not to get too dogmatic about 'the right course/path'.

There is always an Environmental science degree. Nottingham had excellent option snd good grad prospects. With jobs it’s more than degree that counts though. It’s also ambition snd soft skills.

@PerpetualOptimist I think your post pointing out that in some sense DD and her father are not all that far apart is the most useful of the thread. The tone of your posts is always so original and constructive.

@Festoonlights the Environmental Science degree at Notts found by @TizerorFizz ticks a lot of your DD’s boxes: the programme of study sounds appealing (I think); there is ample opportunity for field work, placements, and study abroad; and she easily meets the admissions requirements.

My only slight sense of caution is around the last - on paper the requirements are not hugely demanding and call to mind the concern voiced by @PerpetualOptimist that some innovative, exciting sounding programmes may lack rigour. However on the whole Notts is very good for undergraduate STEM so if your DD finds the programme intriguing it is well worth investigating.

(I would again suggest the Env Eng programme at Leeds to her on similar grounds, but I don’t think a Civil Eng programme with just an Env Eng component sounds like what she wants.)

There is nothing wrong with being one of the more able students in your cohort - the question is whether your DD would stay motivated to work hard, because in such an environment she really should aim for a solid First. (Occasionally able high school students find uni genuinely hard and must recalibrate. That’s fine. But if your DD goes into a middle Russell Group Uni she should do so with high goals if she wants a good career in an evolving field. This is not a warning against such unis! But the road is smoothest for the most proactive students and a big piece of that is the academic record.)

@poetryandwine
Civil engineering without Physics is almost impossible. Notts do an undergrad masters in Environmental science and this is good for employment. I do think there are question marks about the level of earnings snd grads need to think hard about careers. I think a good degree from somewhere like Nottingham is worth having but lots of DC are interested in this area of study.

Also Geography at the best universities will cover the environment too. At many, Env Sci is a branch of Geography. I would certainly look in far more detail at the best Geography courses. They don’t pigeonhole grads and masters allow specialisms to develop.

I was just about to say the same thing about biology as Tizer said about Geography. Would your DD be happy doing Biology at a great university choosing both interesting modules and modules that will support employability?

Rather than a joint honours with a subject she isn’t really interested in?

Dh after much research is imploring her to mix this with environmental sustainability with economics as the job prospects are so limited with biology and biosciences/environmental science. He seems to think the job market is tight and badly paid in bio areas.

A lot of students will be doing degrees in subject we recognise, but will enter into jobs and careers in 5-10 years that don't even exist at the moment.

This is a good thing!