We are letting DD down already!

[Festoonlights]

I would really appreciate some wisdom. DD is making her choices for universities. Her predicted grades are AA and A in maths, biology and geography - she is also currently doing a fourth in economics predicted an A although she is thinking to drop econ.

She is passionate about environmental sustainability and loves field work and wants to mix it with ecology etc at Edinburgh or do a straight biology degree. Dh after much research is imploring her to mix this with environmental sustainability with economics as the job prospects are so limited with biology and biosciences/environmental science. He seems to think the job market is tight and badly paid in bio areas. DD does enjoy econ but prefers more fun subjects.

Dd is a bright and capable student, but we are getting very lost as to how to help her make a decision, she isn’t fixed on anything atm.

Battle lines are becoming apparent as dh says environmental stuff is a hobby/ interest not a career. She has ruled out law and most other routes. Any thoughts?

environmental stuff is a hobby/ interest not a career

With all due respect OP, while he may have a good job if your husband says this then he's a fucking idiot.

"Environmental stuff" has never been more focused on than it is now.

It's not only vital work, it's highly valued as companies are being assessed and regulated when it comes to their environmental footprint.

To dismiss a career in that field is ridiculous.

He sounds out of touch and keen to relive his teen decision making through her, making up for what he sees as his past mistakes.

It's actually a very selfish approach.

I agree with your DH in the sense that she has to look not only at the courses but at the job market for people who take those courses. She has to be realistic.

She needs to look at how many people are studying biology and what you can do with it and how much the various job pays, and how much such jobs actually exist. Ditto for environmental sciences focus. She has to do the maths.

My nephew did marine biology at a top uni now works as a builder. Best friends son did history at Bristol and works in a supermarket. I guess dh is nervous for her, and doesn’t want her to throw away her opportunities.

This is quite telling. I don't personally have a problem with someone working in a supermarket. It's a job, hard work, not badly paid and we will always need people to do it.

I went to Bristol and someone on my course (MFL not history but still) went on to work in a supermarket; she was very pleased about it too. I bet she earns more than I do now (woolly media-type).

Maybe these students were also forced into something they did not enjoy. Or maybe they chose it and then realised they didn;t like it after all. I think you both need to take a step back. There are many years ahead and no need for your DD to become an economist in a hurry if she doesn;t fancy it.

Cos the banking and finance economists have been really doing a brilliant job, haven't they? <looking at you, 2008 economic crash>

Get her to follow her passions, even if that leads her into a couple of cul de sacs and dead ends. And from a former banker, I would much rather our brightest and best were going into environmental work rather than finding new ways to prop up a dying economic system.

Former Russell Group STEM admissions tutor here. Just …. Wow. I have several points to make.

First, FWIW before I even finished your first post I said to myself, ‘I wonder if the husband/father is in banking or finance?’ I have never had a remotely similar reaction to a post before. This is less because he favours Econ and more because he sounded so controlling. I know you’ve moderated your language now but I think there is usually some emotional truth in the tone of our first posts. I’m glad you’re here and I hope you’re finding the consensus helpful.

My points below are more practical (though I agree with the consensus).

First, although your DD is obviously very able, the fourth A level is an unnecessary handicap. (Even Oxbridge are at least equally happy with an EPQ, which is better prep for the university experience, and supracurriculars.) One that you don’t want is a stressor as well. Why would your husband put your DD through that, risking her results? She’s very clever and of an age where she may value her autonomy enough to retake the upper hand. The obvious way to do that would be to rebel against the whole thing or simply to collapse. Is that what he wants?

In practical terms, the only marine biologist I know is about ten years out and living quite happily on a series of government research contracts. She has a stable geographical base and home life and the job security looks good from a practical point of view. The organisation simply need to apply periodically for funding. She loves her work.

But given your DD’s maths talent, I also wonder whether Environmental Engineering would suit her? It is predicted to be a fabulous growth field, the boundaries with Environmental Biology and Climate Science are permeable, and the pay is (much) better. Although I usually think Student Satisfaction
Ratings and informal versions thereof need to be taken with a grain of salt, in relative terms they provide useful information. Your DD could look at the picture for EnvE students if she would like to learn more. The National Student Satisfaction Survey of final year students (NSS) was just published this month by the Office for Students and can be found on their website. BTW I am not at Edinburgh but I think Edinburgh is fab.

You said your DD was looking forward to field work. Is this something highly specific? I have no idea what EnvE offers though I know some environmental engineers who work on site in fairly exotic/primitive locations. Would study abroad be an adequate substitute?

She should speak to a careers adviser.
Unfortunately most parents have very limited knowledge of the labour market. She needs to speak to an expert who can be impartial.

Please persuade your husband to butt out. He clearly has no idea what he’s on about with job prospects and pay in a field he isn’t familiar with. And he has no right to interfere.
The Edinburgh programme sounds like a good fit for her and there will be similar ones elsewhere. The course info on websites usually tells you what kinds of careers each degree can lead to, and the destinations of past graduates. Encourage her to look at lots of different ones, maybe with guidance from teachers.
Eventually she’ll make a decision she’s happy with.
If my dd had chosen a degree in Bosnian Needlework Studies I would have expressed opinions about how limiting it could be in terms of a future career, but if it was her passion I would have supported her. The best degree subject is one you’re really happy doing. I’ve seen too many unhappy students who were coerced into their parents’ choice of degree, and too many who end up dropping out.

Another interesting one was in a presentation at the college about choosing subjects - the person put up a list of degree subjects and a list of careers/jobs and asked us to draw a line from subject to job. Most of the degrees had no bearing on the eventual job which was an eye opener.

This is very true.

I studied English Literature and when I look at the friendship group I had at the time, the industries we now work in include law, higher education, PR, illustrator, finance, HR, data analysis...

All working at very senior levels, partners at firms or Managing Directors of companies we have set up.

I let all of mine choose their courses
Didn’t cross my mind to do anything else

PS Your DD could also join the online forum TheStudentRoom to learn more about the pros and cons of both degree programmes and any others she is interested in

Another interesting one was in a presentation at the college about choosing subjects - the person put up a list of degree subjects and a list of careers/jobs and asked us to draw a line from subject to job. Most of the degrees had no bearing on the eventual job which was an eye opener.

Excellent point. Around 80% of graduate jobs don't require a specific subject.
People are always surprised to hear that the top accountancy firms target history courses because it's about the skills developed.

Whilst I largely agreed with "it's DD's choice", I do think that as a parent, you do want to ensure your child is doing a degree that will help them get a future job, particularly if you're funding the degree to some extent. So I think if DD was looking to do something really obscure which was very unlikely to help them get a graduate job, I'd be very strongly encouraging to think again. But you certainly can't be pushing them into a degree they don't want to do.

But anyway your DD's choice doesn't sound like that sort of degree. I work in finance and we actually take on graduates with any numerate degree, eg any science, engineering, maths, economics, psychology. So even if she did want to go in that direction, she'd probably be able to. But also every company now needs to be thinking about the environment, with lots of "climate change management" type roles, so actually it could probably lead to a really wide range of careers. If she can prove to your DH that her degree would open lots of doors then hopefully he will back down.

DC are currently choosing degree/uni and post-GCSE options so I sympathise. At least your DD (and mine) have an interest they want to follow, whereas DS not interested in anything so I can see why he's struggling to choose his next steps.

Environmental science jobs are going to be a massive growth industry from now on - ecologists, environmental consultants and climate change roles are already in massive demand and will continue to be so. Ecologists are like hens teeth at the moment!

Env sciences offer a huge range of exciting and challenging career opportunities as well as the chance to contribute in the future to tackling the climate & biodiversity emergencies we have created.
Your DH sounds narrow-minded and perhaps obsessed with money as an indicator of success?

There are a number of degrees which offer an opportunity to study overseas - I spent a year studying in Vancouver as part of my Env sciences degree at Lancaster and it was life changing.

I know plenty of people who studied biology/life science degrees and have good careers (myself included). She should do what she enjoys. She will be fine.

This! OP's husband sounds so out of touch with the job market in general, including for graduates, that he's clearly someone who shouldn't be giving advice when it comes to higher education choices. What a ridiculous man.

You just follow what you most enjoy! No point doing something that makes you miserable as you'll end up in a job you hate. At least if she does a subject she enjoys and is good at, she has a great chance of getting into a career that she also enjoys and is good at. That's the holy grail.

My friends who done biology at uni now work in poorly paid roles as the biggest problem was that prospective employers who needed that degree also wanted them to have experience prior to employment.

Those that done the sandwich course where they had a year of unpaid placements faired better as they graduated with soke experience.

It's madness! She definitely needs to look at where she will be working and requirements

I did sustainable environmental management at sruc which is validated by Edinburgh uni. Was a great choice. I started off with history at Stirling, then changed to geography then changed uni completely. I had a break from environmental stuff but now I’m just about to start an msc is sustainable rural development at university of the Highlands and Islands.

the environmental area is just growing bigger and is not at all poorly paid, conservation isn’t paid great but ecologists and environmental and sustainability managers are paid quite well. At least as much as other areas in similar level jobs.

I am feeling quite tearful and like a useless mother reading your messages. As I didn’t got to uni, so I have no idea how to help her. I had to obtain my education the long way around. I always knew I’d struggle at this point. I am in a creative industry and find the explanations of the science modules baffling on the websites. Our school imagines the parents have all been to university, it would be embarrassing to say otherwise.

My dd is an outdoors person, brilliant at biology which happened naturally and is mathematical. She is totally undecided about direction which doesn’t help.

Dh suggested she needs a commercial angle and to diversify to buy more time so she can decide her direction: She is looking at

life sciences with economics at Warwick
economics, environment and ecology at Edinburgh (can’t remember exact name - but similar)
biology and econ Joint Honours at St Andrews
Natural sciences with econ - joint honours Durham
Possibly land economy - Cambridge

Is there enough flexibility in these choices? For a student like her do they sound a good fit?

I did Ecology because I enjoyed it, and then a masters afterwards because most interesting jobs I saw required one. I now work in research and earn a decent wage (nothing like banking though!). My undergrad had modules in sustainability, biology, environmental impact etc - it's good that she's looking at the specific modules because they vary so much from uni to uni. Things like natural capital and SROI/connection to nature link nicely with ecology if your DH needs some more convincing! Scotland is a great place to be based if she likes fieldwork - actually recommend Glasgow too as they have a field station she can get involved with.

Have to jump in here as I have worked employing "Environmental Scientists". It is such a big subject that the graduates are useless as they know a little about everything. I always recommend a good grounding in a basic science subject, biology chemistry physics or maths then followed by a Masters in an area that interests her. I think I might be a it old fashioned here though. If she does do an Environmental science degree she will still need a masters to so specialised knowledge in depth to get any work.

I would also add its a fantastic career. I travelled the world working on all types of projects.

OP it is interesting that those courses all include economics - even tho she is thinking of dropping it. Does she really want to do the subject for three or four more years?

I am sorry that you feel inadequate - plenty of very successful people have not been to university and I am sure your DD's school does not assume every parent has (what kind of school is it?).

Another point - obvs no idea where you are but we have found location is a key factor. DD ended up having to complete her degree while living at home, so thank goodness it was possible to commute. And DS2, while happy at uni, has needed quite a lot of support with a time-consuimg extra-curricular activity which would have been a nightmare if he had been in Scotland (we are in midlands). So unless you live close to Scotland, you might like to consider a uni that is nearer. i realise this is not an issue for everyone but it is worth factoring in, is all.

Thank you for all of your advice and guidance and especially those that have degrees and experience in this area.