We are letting DD down already!

[Festoonlights]

I would really appreciate some wisdom. DD is making her choices for universities. Her predicted grades are AA and A in maths, biology and geography - she is also currently doing a fourth in economics predicted an A although she is thinking to drop econ.

She is passionate about environmental sustainability and loves field work and wants to mix it with ecology etc at Edinburgh or do a straight biology degree. Dh after much research is imploring her to mix this with environmental sustainability with economics as the job prospects are so limited with biology and biosciences/environmental science. He seems to think the job market is tight and badly paid in bio areas. DD does enjoy econ but prefers more fun subjects.

Dd is a bright and capable student, but we are getting very lost as to how to help her make a decision, she isn’t fixed on anything atm.

Battle lines are becoming apparent as dh says environmental stuff is a hobby/ interest not a career. She has ruled out law and most other routes. Any thoughts?

She was predicted A stars in geo and biology and an A in econ. If she drops one she can move her maths prediction from a B to an A which opens up her uni options. So that’s why she wants to drop econ. Otherwise she would have continued with four a levels.

Its an academic school. Unimaginable not to be at least educated to degree/masters level.

I work for a CRO and we are crying out for ecotoxicologists at the moment.

I worked in the City for 20 years until recently, totally irrelevant.

Your DH has done his A levels, made his degree choice and made his career choices.

He doesn't get to do it all over again with your DDs.

TBH he sounds like an insufferable control freak.

You can give advice as parents but otherwise your DD has to live her life and make her own choices.

Let her choose. I have all A grades and my family tried to talk me out of doing primary teaching at uni because with my grades I could have done something leading to a "better/more highly paid" job. I stuck in and I still love being a teacher 20 years later. There's a lot to be said for enjoying what you do.

I wouldn't worry too much, she can reposition to a more commercial angle at postgrad - masters loans are unlikely to have disappeared within four or five years. You're not letting her down. The most important thing is that she picks something she is committed to getting through four years of, or she will end up wasting money anyway.

If she loves field work and the environment has she looked at Earth Sciences/ Geology at all? Not much good if she wants to be doing mostly Biology, but it's less oversubscribed than Bio, has some fairly lucrative career applications as well as environmental ones, and is a very fieldwork-rich degree. She would be a good candidate with those subjects - Edinburgh a fantastic place to study it too. Just a thought!

www.geolsoc.org.uk/geologycareerpathways

Thank you, yes she would love a placement overseas and it would most definitely suit her poetryandwine. She just said she doesn’t want to be ‘cooped up’ in lecture halls doing economics day in and day out, but out in the field or travelling to new places to explore the subjects.
we haven’t got all summer as she has 3 weeks of work experience and a week away. So won’t see her after this week.

You are supporting her by being there and interested in what she is doing with her very pivotal choice at this stage, which is great OP.

For what it's worth, looking at your latest update on your DD's strengths - I think your DH is right.

I agree with him that she to keep her Options open.

Things are quite competitive these days and he wants her to have the edge.

Options equals Choices down the line...

I agree with him that she needs to keep her Options open.

I did bioscience as did my husband. I now teach it at university and my husband is in scientific sales (and earns substantially
more than me- we both did a PhD after our degrees. It’s a complicated question. There area careers that you can go into post degree that pay well (although probably not by a bankers standard) and there are areas that are more niche, have more limited career options and don’t pay as well. Generally the environmental side of things isn’t as well paying due to the types of jobs graduates go into. It’s still a decent salary but it’s not going to be six figures. I have two children and would be happier if they decided they wanted to go into economics over biology or even engineering as job prospects seem to be better- however I would never force them into it. It’s not all about the money/ your dd also has to be happy in her career choice. For what it’s worth both me and DH have wished we went into medicine or dentistry at some point in our lives.

Talking through is one thing but once you get to the point where battle lines are being drawn it's very much time to step back. Regardless of how said degree is funded it's her choice. DH had the opportunity to make some not great decisions and she needs to have the opportunity to do the same.

That is precisely what he said always, she has 60 years of work ahead of, a flexible degree will give her more options in the future. I don’t think he is being controlling, but looking out for her. He wants her to be able to have the choice later when she has more of an idea of what she wants to do. He sees the econ as insurance.

Whatever you do you really need to watch how you talk about your daughters choices. You use 'we' as though she is still a child and that the decisions are all of yours. You husband sounds overbearing and a little controlling. Your daughter sounds very bright and will have lots of options.

I always made sure my kids made their own decisions. I'd ferry them around to open days if needed (I just did the driving then buggered off for the day while they attended the sessions etc) and helped them get work experience etc but otherwise left it to them. You need to make it clear that it's their life and that they need to be responsible for it.

Imagine if you daughter ends up doing a degree she isn't sure of then blaming your husband for pushing her into it if it goes wrong.

Many degrees and universities allow you to chop and change modules.

Can't personally advise on these subjects as it's not my area. That said I've always advised my students (I was a teacher) that they need to apply for similar courses across universities- you only write one personal statement and it's obvious to admissions if you're tailoring it to a particular course and doesn't make a student attractive to them if it's not theirs. So whatever she does decide, find similar courses across all universities applied for (for example don't throw a random 'with economics' course in there to keep DH happy as the personal statement won't match up and she'll be less likely to be offered a place - it's a waste of a choice)

It’s not being overly materialistic but knowing how hard life is when there isn’t anywhere near enough money. How difficult life can be. Money buys options, security and safety. It’s that view point and not flagrant consumerism. A solid profession is protective not bullet proof.

It needs to be her decision. Degrees are hard, she needs to actually want to study the subject. Any degree is worthwhile because the vast majority of jobs require a degree "in any subject "! My friends dd has that exact degree and works for her local council, not paid a fortune but us a stable job

Your DD and DH may not be as far part on this as you or they may think. @Letsnotargue makes some very interesting points about the distinction between opportunities in environmental sustainability and those in pure ecology. This distinction may be underlying DH's suggestion that DD considers course options that allow exploration of, or at least a route to, the former. A rigorous general biology degree at a competitive uni may well allow for that as might courses at a competitive uni that allow other rigorous modules to be built around a biology core. It sound to me like DD is on the right path for her despite DH's intervention and he is in danger of trying to drive his DD down a cul-de-sac that is not right for her (eg econ heavy degree?) that may end up in drop-out or 2.2.

It might be beneficial for you to talk to DH to get him to work through his anxieties about all this. You say he make a poor life choice early on, 'recovered' and is now economically successful. He probably wants to 'save' his DD from a similar fate. However, he may well not have got to his current point of success without the initial set-back. He needs to see it is better to concentrate on sharing his research (hard facts, not a wall of opinion) but also to be open to the facts DD shares that she discovers about different uni and degree choices.

Your DH also needs to appreciate that the City is a bubble where the favoured few can do very well but, if your talents and motivations do not align, it is miserable. 'On average' mean salaries of econ graduates are higher than those of bio grads but this masks several aspects. Firstly, if you drill down, a relatively small number of highly paid City-based econ types skew the salary averages (same is true for Maths and Physics grads and to a lesser extent CS grads); you can check this by comparing the mean and median values. 'Doing econ' does not guarantee success.

Bio-related opportunities are more dispersed nationally and, like History and Geography and Philosophy, a Biology degree is a broad based discipline that can attract a fair number of students who do not have a clear career focus and so it can take time for them to find their path; this may, or may not, be the background in the case of your friend's DC with a Bristol History degree. The point is that 'subject averages' mask a huge range of outcomes, driven largely by the talents, drive and focus of individual DC. Your DD sounds like she is very bright across both physical and social sciences, has a passion for environmental aspects and is already identifying some stretching but potentially very relevant unis/courses.

Finally, encourage your DH to channel his underlying concerns/desire-to-help into something positive like linking DD up with people within his professional network who focus on sustainability - not as a means to 'persuade her from the horrors of a Biology degree' but so she can see some of the potential roles that are available in 'his world' that may or may not align with her passions and interests.

Me I studied business and economics, I earn a pittance in non profit, more to life than money

The only people I have ever known to say that are people that have no experience of real poverty. I am not going to apologise for wanting my
dd to avoid that outcome by choosing a degree that at least offers job security/solid future employment . Not all degrees are the same, and some clearly have a wide range of outcomes. I am not wishing for her to earn rockstar sums, but I hope she can be financially secure in the future, independently.

Hi again, @Festoonlights

I am sorry I was so harsh on your husband earlier. Financial security is a fine thing, but it is a question of degree. His own early poor choices may be affecting him now.

You sound like a good mum! I imagine the situation with school on the one hand and your husband on the other can be intimidating. It shouldn’t be - your creativity is a skill most of us lack, but people who measure success in monetary terms don’t necessarily see it that way.

The list of degree programmes looks very good to me. (The names of what I found are slightly different.) Three (I think) of them require at least AAA so it is very important for your DD to get those PGs. Drop the Econ!

Maths is recommended for I think three and it always looks good to have grade A in Maths. Also, very, very few Econ degree programmes require Econ A level. The strong ones are all about Maths and TBH several of the best want Further Maths. Luckily for your DD that ship has sailed!

In terms of earnings, IIRC in addition to the good potential for Env E, IIRC that Land Economy course at Cambridge has excellent earnings potential. But it is just a dim memory from somewhere.

I think all the Russell Group and many other unis offer Study Abroad. At mine and others I know, you must be on a four year degree programme to participate. Explaining why tends to generate questions so is best left for a discussion with the appropriate tutor.

I think your observation about poverty is correct, @Festoonlights. I am not sure I would have risked the poverty level support package my PhD programme began with if I hadn’t known my parents were a safety net. I think my entire cohort was middle class and there was probably good reason for this.

Your husband sounds really dated in his views. Maybe show him this headline - with the explosion in ESG roles, your daughter would be fine (if that's the route she wants to go down).

@Festoonlights our very good friend's DC all read English and are now working for the Big 4, with very high starting salary.

Ds recently graduated with BSc Geography and Environmental Science from Scottish Uni (A levels were Geography, Biology and Physics +EPQ)
Benefits of Scottish degree offers a very flexible degree structure , which allowed him to try a variety of subsidiary subjects in first 2 years which he'd never studied before ( philosophy, psychology and Film studies!)
In his 2 senior honours years he specialised in Environmental Sustainability, water resources , remote sensing , geographical information systems and spent a lot of time following up his field trips working on data analysis
His degree had opportunities for field work in Cairngorms, Iceland, Spain and chance to spend year in Canada
He had planned to go on to do MSc in Environmental planning but the pandemic put paid to that as fieldwork was on hold
He's now on a Software engineering grad scheme with Multinational Bank with starting salary of £40k+

I think the appropriate response would have been: ‘that sounds great DD. I’m sure you’ll find the course interesting and have a wonderful time. I don’t know too much about environmental science, but I don’t doubt that there are lots of fantastic careers out there for you.’

Honestly, if anything I think you and your husband should be pleased. It’s not as if she’s picked a total Mickey Mouse degree. But even if she did it would still be her decision, not your husband’s.

"The price of everything and the value of nothing" is a saying I think of when you talk about your husband.