We are letting DD down already!

[Festoonlights]

I would really appreciate some wisdom. DD is making her choices for universities. Her predicted grades are AA and A in maths, biology and geography - she is also currently doing a fourth in economics predicted an A although she is thinking to drop econ.

She is passionate about environmental sustainability and loves field work and wants to mix it with ecology etc at Edinburgh or do a straight biology degree. Dh after much research is imploring her to mix this with environmental sustainability with economics as the job prospects are so limited with biology and biosciences/environmental science. He seems to think the job market is tight and badly paid in bio areas. DD does enjoy econ but prefers more fun subjects.

Dd is a bright and capable student, but we are getting very lost as to how to help her make a decision, she isn’t fixed on anything atm.

Battle lines are becoming apparent as dh says environmental stuff is a hobby/ interest not a career. She has ruled out law and most other routes. Any thoughts?

but I hope she can be financially secure in the future, independently

Yes you work part time?

Maybe you should choose a degree and become financially independent?

I am just completing my degree now thanks, and have worked for the last 17 years!
The cost of living in this country makes it barely affordable to buy your own home by yourself as a young person, certainly where we live.

I will feel I have done a good job as a parent when my dc are financially solvent, can run their lives efficiently and independently and have a solid profession and education.

^life sciences with economics at Warwick

economics, environment and ecology at Edinburgh (can’t remember exact name - but similar)

biology and econ Joint Honours at St Andrews
Natural sciences with econ - joint honours Durham

Possibly land economy - Cambridge^

These are good options. Environmental engineering usually requires physics or chemistry so not really open to her.
Natural sciences at Durham would allow her to do economics anyway.
If she did n’t do a Scottish degree, she could use her fourth year for a specialist master course if that were helpful for her career interests.

IMO economics and environment science are natural partners for academic study that leads to making a difference for the environment but her desire for wanting a bit more adventure through field projects is understandable. She should look for opportunities to volunteer for field projects next summer. Enthusiasm and real interest in something counts hugely for her future prospects.
IME for somebody like her starting her degree, in demand core skills for employability are the ability to be a clear and engaging communicator of complex data or ideas, mathematical / technical abilities of data analysis including programming and - something straight economics graduates don’t have- a technical background in a sector.

As an aside one of my DCs had no interest in economics and no knowledge of financial analysis tools and is in one of these highest earning graduate jobs at a top investment bank and enjoying it despite the long hours.

This.

Your DH is focused on the financial benefits of a degree. Your DD is choosing how she wants to live her life and finances are only one part of it. Yes, she will need to earn a living but does she even want to be in a cut throat industry?

I'm struck by one phrase - environmental stuff is just a hobby - given the UK's need to get to net zero in the next 18 years, I think that might change.

Your daughter sounds really bright and clued up. Environmental issues just a hobby?! My DH studied environmental science at uni, now focuses on climate change adaptation and is a Professor earning £90,000 a year. Bit more than a hobby for him! Ecological issues and climate change are huge right now, and will continue to be so. My DH has loads of friends working in this area and they all have good, well paid jobs ranging from academia, consultancy, NGOs, government, charities such as WWF. Sorry but your husband doesn't know what he's talking about.

My DD's flatmate at St Andrews (they graduated in 2021) got her (First) degree in Geography / Sustainable Development and wrote an amazing dissertation on some women's health issues. It seemed to be a fabulous course and she was happy with it.

My DH studied environmental science at uni, now focuses on climate change adaptation and is a Professor earning £90,000 a year. Bit more than a hobby for him! Ecological issues and climate change are huge right now, and will continue to be so. My DH has loads of friends working in this area and they all have good, well paid jobs ranging from academia, consultancy, NGOs, government, charities such as WWF. Sorry but your husband doesn't know what he's talking about.

Independently of the importance of environmental science, there will be a supply versus demand for jobs for current graduates as it has become rightly a more popular career interest.
I don’t think you can necessarily extrapolate from the careers of PP’s DH and his friends. There will be far fewer of their generation in this sector and therefore currently their built up capital of experience and expertise is particularly valuable.

I have always regretted and resented letting my parents influnce my degree choice (only child and 17 and had a "talent" for music). Dd1 studied Law at Bristol and came top on her highly prestigious MA course - now following an entirely different career she enjoys, dd2's degree isn't very connected to her job, and ds is very happy as a builder and he has bought his first house with gf at 24. Dd3 about to head off to university (fingers crossed) - her choice, her life though of course we will always support. If she was going to get into huge debt to study tiddlywinks or something, we'd probably intervene then and suggest a bit of travel or a job first.

I haven’t read the full thread yet but your DH needs to wind his neck in.

your DD would make a great ecologist! They make plenty of money upon graduation. Every new build in the country needs an ecology report.

my parents were like your DH and forced me into doing architecture. I hate it and I’m leaving as soon as I can. My relationship with my parents has suffered greatly

Sorry haven’t rtf, and someone might have already posted this, but this is a good site for labour market info re green jobs. So she can see potential careers and what they pay.

www.greenjobs.co.uk

bio medical science is amazingly broad. Check out their community in twitter to get an idea of what careers there might look like. #WeBMS #IBMSChat

Snd can you help her find some related work experience ? best way to learn more about reality of careers.

Alternatively look at free online courses in the subjects , and which ones get her most interested. Open Learn from Open University is great starting point. Also Future Learn.

I echo the suggestion of courses with placements or other real-world experience, whatever your DD finally chooses!

Also, for employability, pay, and course satisfaction ratings: the "unistats" data has been renamed and is now at discoveruni.gov.uk -- it's a great tool to compare course data.

Actually, @Festoonlights in the U.K. Env E is mostly subsumed into Civil Eng. I have @TizerorFizz to thank for this knowledge. Some Civ Eng Schools have programmes in Env E but otherwise it might be too far a stretch for your DD.

However, @sendsummer, the DD does have the A levels for some of them, including Edinburgh and the Env E programme at Leeds, as well as Southampton. That’s 50% of my small sample. Mind, I am not saying it is what she wants to do.

There are BEng / MEng undergrad Environmental or Civil / Environmental Engineering degrees springing up now, and quite a few MSc options.

Some courses require either maths or physics at A level, and some require maths and chemistry or physics.

Biology would be useful but probably not as much as physics and definitely chemistry IME (I spent a good few years working in environmental engineering via an Earth sciences degree and an engineering Masters).

@Dreikanter
Yes there are a few BEng courses in Environmental Engineering but not very many. It will also make you a one trick pony so a 17 year old needs to be sure of this route. Nottingham does one. Many engineers specialise later. Maths and Physics or Chemistry will be required though. I cannot think of any engineers who don’t have maths.

Sorry - I see she has maths. But the physics or chemistry might be an issue.

Oh my goodness I can’t thank you enough for these amazing replies! Especially poetry and many others that have given such helpful links and advice. I have read every reply to dh, and we are both grateful for your guidance and experience and it’s really helped enormously. We are looking at all of the stats, courses and pathways, and said to dd we will follow her lead, which has given her a huge spring in her step and she has been chattering away ever since about her future plans. Handing over the reins is very hard to do after working as a team for so long.

Me. I’ve only got O level maths, physics and chemistry but did a specialist engineering Masters which involved a lot of maths (had to work hard on that aspect). Ended up working in civils and then environmental engineering.

@Dreikanter
That route is very slow! MEng these days is via A levels. Few employers will train anyone with GCSEs. DH does a lot of Env Engineering (well others do the detail) and most are civils trained. That’s partly because Env Engineering was not offered as a stand alone degree. It’s not widely available because it’s a sub set of civils. Civil engineers can certainly veer to Env Eng if they want to. There is indeed plenty of work. However I think engineering is best suited to those with the required science A levels. Otherwise it’s Environmental Science where Geog snd Maths are fine.

Get her to look at Earth Sciences degrees. Very varied.

@TizerorFizz I already had a good first non-engineering degree, worked a couple of years in an engineering specialism and then did the MSc directly related to my work experience (all funded back in those days).

I did conventional civils for a while with a couple of large UK consultants and then changed tack into environmental engineering and later into environmental protection / management within a UK multinational. Integrated Masters engineering degrees didn’t exist when I did my first degree and my MSc was more niche than an MEng could cover.

Just an illustration that you don’t have to follow conventional routes into environmental engineering - several of my colleagues at the time had followed similar routes (some were chemists, a couple were biology / environmental biology graduates, one of whom is now VP of a multinational environmental tech company).

I'm quite surprised by your DH's perspective given the huge increase in ESG focus in the financial markets, whether that's dedicated ESG products or exclusions on certain investments such as fossil fuels, tobacco and arms. One of the real challenges of ESG products is how to design the parameters and there's a shortage of people in the city who understand climate change and its trade offs (eg energy poverty) enough to advise.

Dh is in a totally different sector which has nothing to do with green investment.

His view is there is a world of difference between an environmentalist so to speak and a concrete profession that can be flexible enough to move into any industry, so she has the most options in the future. Law, Finance etc can all be shaped around the environment but It can also work outside that industry. I guess he doesn’t want her to narrow down her options too much when she is still very unsure and unclear about her direction.

Can I ask whether the natural science with econ at Durham is a good fit? She loves the flexibility of that course, she is looking at earth science and econ. I am wondering though if it’s very hard to get on that course - as I guess anyone that doesn’t get NS at Cambridge is likely to go for Durham? She said land economy at Cambridge looks very very dull, is that true?

You can have a look at career pathways with her and also look into what other postgraduate degrees she can take after that that can lead to a career. It's best for her to know you're supporting her decisions and her options giving her gentle advice rather than going against her decision. Even though you have good intentions and are doing it out of love she will feel that you are treating her like a child by making decisions for her and will be unlikely to change her mind.

@Festoonlights the title of the Durham programme sound great. Unfortunately when you get to the fine print it says (and I may be paraphrasing) ‘Within Natural Sciences, Economics has Joint Honours Degree Programmes with Mathemtics and Psychology.’ Those are the only ones. I only saw it now.

I also couldn’t get to their suggested A level subjects as that link takes me to a page requiring a Log In.

I think one PP here was from the Land Economy programme at Cambridge but I don’t remember what they said.

You’ve had really fantastic advice here OP, hopefully it has been helpful to your daughter. All I would say is I would be very wary of pushing anybody who isn’t that fussed about economics to study it at university - even for those who really wanted to study it, it really can be hard going and very boring at points (as all degrees can be I know). If you weren’t that into it in the first place, I could see it getting intolerable rather quickly!

What an exciting next few months for your DD making her choices