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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

We are letting DD down already!

196 replies

Festoonlights · 24/07/2022 12:19

I would really appreciate some wisdom. DD is making her choices for universities. Her predicted grades are AA and A in maths, biology and geography - she is also currently doing a fourth in economics predicted an A although she is thinking to drop econ.

She is passionate about environmental sustainability and loves field work and wants to mix it with ecology etc at Edinburgh or do a straight biology degree. Dh after much research is imploring her to mix this with environmental sustainability with economics as the job prospects are so limited with biology and biosciences/environmental science. He seems to think the job market is tight and badly paid in bio areas. DD does enjoy econ but prefers more fun subjects.

Dd is a bright and capable student, but we are getting very lost as to how to help her make a decision, she isn’t fixed on anything atm.

Battle lines are becoming apparent as dh says environmental stuff is a hobby/ interest not a career. She has ruled out law and most other routes. Any thoughts?

OP posts:
Mariposa80 · 24/07/2022 13:29

I would have loved to have been given some more guidance beyond picking a subject you like. I definitely wouldn't have done a biology degree knowing what I know now.

RudsyFarmer · 24/07/2022 13:29

She needs to decide what her motivation is. Does she want a high paying career that she may or may not hate or does she want to follow a vocational path to a career that gives her huge job satisfaction.

your husband sounds very motivated by money. Your daughter may not be.

Letsnotargue · 24/07/2022 13:31

I did a Biology degree because I liked Biology, I didn’t give any thought to what I would do at the end of it, and I work in Sustainability. The number of environmental/sustainability jobs going at the moment is astounding as companies are all realising that they have to perform in this area to be competitive, and legal requirements for environmental reporting are increasing. There are more jobs around now than ever before.

Biology is a well regarded degree and is pretty well sought after for sustainability recruits. The thing with sustainability is that although the ideas are green and aspirational the actual work is a lot more down to Earth - working with companies to reduce their energy consumption, reduce waste production etc. I love it but it’s very different to ecology.

Ecology tends to be very popular with students but the reality is that there are very few positions going, and those that are available expect a lot of volunteer work. I didn’t pursue that as I could t afford to volunteer as I needed paid employment.

With a lot of Environmental specialities the science and priorities change so quickly that formal qualifications aren’t always the way to go. A solid grounding in a good science subject, being well read and informed and having the appropriate voluntary experience if necessary are far more important IME.

I wish your daughter good luck with whatever she decides.

Singleandproud · 24/07/2022 13:32

I once took a group of students to a Stem event and the keynote speaker advised the students to do whatever interested them the most at the time and when it doesn't interest you anymore move on. That way you are more likely to enjoy your job and develop yourself and your role. Money isn't a motivator for many people, I enjoy working outside and have left a better paying but soul destroying job to do so. As long as the job covers the bills that is all that matters. Even starting out she could go for a graduate scheme in the public sector to gain experience such as Nature England, Environment Agency.

iwantmyownicecreamvan · 24/07/2022 13:33

I let my son do a degree he liked - something to do with special effects, it was a BSc - but now at 37 he regrets doing it. TBF he was promised all sorts of job offers by the university which must have been made up - by the end of his 3rd year the course had closed. The only students who could make a start on a career in that field were those who lived in the London area, whose parents could support them whilst they worked for free as an intern. He wishes he'd either done a more useful degree or not bothered with a degree at all and done an apprenticeship.

I do have regrets but I don't see how I could have forced him to study something he didn't like and I think if he hadn't done it due to my persuasion, he might have been resentful. As it is, he is a bit resentful even now as he thinks he should have been better advised, but I think he blames the university itself rather than me.

iwantmyownicecreamvan · 24/07/2022 13:34

I notice I said "I let my son do a degree he liked" - obviously it wasn't up to me and I couldn't have stopped him, nor would I have wanted to.

ClaudiusTheGod · 24/07/2022 13:34

Festoonlights · 24/07/2022 12:36

I am trying to stay neutral. My thoughts are she should choose exactly what she wants to do, the course that most suits her.
My dh is hugely successful, and working in the city of London and knows far more about it than I ever will, he is always saying it is cut throat etc. I work pt in a profession that has nothing to do with science or econ! So my contribution is negligible

So your DH works in law or finance then. Can he really see no other way in life than making money?

bare · 24/07/2022 13:35

I think this is the most worrying aspect of your post:

'environmental stuff is a hobby/ interest not a career'

We need the brightest and the best in conservation, environmental science, biosciences etc at the moment.

FreyaStorm · 24/07/2022 13:37

I was in a similar predicament to your daughter and had no guidance whatsoever so I ended up choosing what turned out to be pretty useless subjects - biology, English, history, accounting.
If I had my time again I would do Maths, Econ and perhaps a language, another science, or further maths, if I had the ability.
Without chemistry, biology is pretty useless if you want to study it at a higher level.
I would pick econ over geography any day.

Bellie99 · 24/07/2022 13:39

Dd was thinking about oxbridge and went to a talk by admissions from both Oxford and Cambridge. The one piece of advice that I was surprised at but actually makes sense was 'choose a course that you want to do not for a job that you may want to do (medic/vet excepted).' Whilst your degree may lead to a related job, a degree shows an employer that you are motivated, self disciplined and can analyse, interpret information and evaluate/critically discuss outcomes etc. it's these skills that are transferable to other careers if your degree does not lead to a specific role, or you change your mind.

DD was looking at MFL only as thought this was needed for job but this persuaded her to look at MFL with Eng Lit and she has never been happier!

user1494050295 · 24/07/2022 13:40

Tell her to look at LSE Dept of geography and environment undergrad courses

brighterthanaluckypenny · 24/07/2022 13:49

A first or a 2:1 in a degree your DH doesn't like the sound of is worth much more than a 2:2 or third in a degree he does.

Degrees last at least three years. That's a long time to fake enthusiasm for something you don't enjoy, which is why many students who are forced into something they hate end up dropping out or getting poor results. Even if she's bright, she won't last as a A-grade student three years plus if she's bored/disinterested.

FWIW, I have an "any degree" job. A 2:1 in any subject got me the job. A 2:2 in a related discipline would not have got me the job.

Let her follow her passion if she has one.

clary · 24/07/2022 13:49

Without chemistry, biology is pretty useless if you want to study it at a higher level.

I see this comment or something like it a lot on MN and I am not sure what is meant by it. Plenty of universities clearly disagree as they offer biology degrees with no requirement to have chemistry A level.

I guess I am a bit defensive as DS studies biology at uni and didn't do chem at A level. He had five offers from RG or other sought-after unis and seems to be doing OK.

Lostinabba · 24/07/2022 13:52

It is hard advising them when you have no idea of the subject area. DH and I are scientists but DD is interested in Philosophy and Law degree.

She is an A* student with a fantastic work ethic so we are just sitting back and letting her choose. But are worried about job prospects.

I would just say that in my area of Environmental Biology, specialists tend to have a minimum of MSc and most have PhD.

frostyfingers · 24/07/2022 14:01

We were given a great piece of advice when our boys were choosing degree subjects. Choose something that they will enjoy - there are times when the work will be tough and they might want to give up but if they enjoy the subject and have chosen it themselves they are more likely to continue.

Another interesting one was in a presentation at the college about choosing subjects - the person put up a list of degree subjects and a list of careers/jobs and asked us to draw a line from subject to job. Most of the degrees had no bearing on the eventual job which was an eye opener. His point was that it’s not always about the potential job….maybe not so relevant in every case but still worth considering.

DarkShade · 24/07/2022 14:03

Think of it this way: she needs to choose something she can do well at for 4 years. She is more likely to get higher grades at something she loves. She can also do electives in Econ to balance it out if she wants to. But I'd let her start on her first choice.

SingingInParadise · 24/07/2022 14:10

I agree that your dd needs to pick a subject she enjoys.
BUT I’ve had a similar chat with dc1 about prospects after his degree. He wanted to do history.
So we talked about the reality of having a history degree and what he would actually be able to do afterwards. We talked about what sort of jobs he’d like to do, the subjects he enjoys etc…. We’ve talked about the importance of having a first. We also talked about the fact he really wants to live abroad and other countries might well think you need a related degree to do a certain job, not just a degree iywim.

The big issue here is that your DH wants too much of a say in what your dd will do. Him showing her the potential pitfalls is normal and healthy. Him imposing his view and telling her what she should do isn’t.

fwiw all the talk about ‘it’s the degree that is important, not the subject because it shows you can think’ will apply easily to someone coming out oxbridge. The mix of a degree plus Oxford will open doors in a way that other degrees won’t. From a another university, not as well recognised, I doubt this will apply.

2bazookas · 24/07/2022 14:11

She should choose universities that offer maximum course flexibility in their biology/ecology science departments.

This enables students to change course at the start or end of year one; and shift course emphasis in later years.

When it comes to career choice, future employers will be more interested in the breadth of of her study (and fieldcourse/ experience) than the title of her degree.

DH should back off.

noirchatsdeux · 24/07/2022 14:12

My ex husband wanted to do English...his mother wanted him to do either Law or Maths...as a compromise he did History at Oxford. Got a 2:1, admits he could have easily got a First but hated Oxford so much he did the bare minimum.

35 years on he still deeply resents his late mother for forcing him to do a subject he wasn't interested in...he's now a journalist and has never worked in a history related occupation. He now says, like many previous posters have said, that it should have been just his choice in the first place!

Squiff70 · 24/07/2022 14:14

I can't advise on the educational side of things but OP, your DH needs to reign it in a bit and be more supportive of your daughter's desires and interests. Whilst your DH understandably wants her to have a well paid job and stable future career, it should not be at the expense of her happiness.

My mum is now 70. When she was making uni choices, she desperately wanted to study landscape architecture. Garden design was and still is her absolute dream and hobby, however her parents (my grandparents) were both teachers and very biased to that end. They pretty much forced her to do teacher training and thus, she became a primary school teacher. She never fully enjoyed it. She was a good teacher (now retired) and gave it everything she had, but she has spent over 50 years resenting her parents for not allowing her to fulfil her dream and it makes me very sad.

Please talk to your DH in private about ways you can support your daughter make sensible career choices without totally steering her away from her dreams and passions. It's clear she is extremely intelligent and hard-working and I don't doubt she could put ANY career choice to good use in terms of building herself a stable, prosperous and happy future career.

2bazookas · 24/07/2022 14:14

dh says environmental stuff is a hobby/ interest not a career.

The unbelievable ignorance displayed above by DH disqualifies him from advising her.

AHamSandwich · 24/07/2022 14:23

Festoonlights · 24/07/2022 12:30

Thank you for your replies. My dh is worried about her financial security, and made terrible decisions early on in life in this regard.

Do other parents just let their kids pick anything? Isn’t it helpful to talk about where the degrees lead to? My nephew did marine biology at a top uni now works as a builder. Best friends son did history at Bristol and works in a supermarket. I guess dh is nervous for her, and doesn’t want her to throw away her opportunities.

I feel she is basing her decisions on field work opportunities which isn’t ideal…

what do other students study with these A levels?

Dds college had an open evening for parents with speakers from unis and tutors giving info on parents can support their child. They've all done similar round here has your dds not?

This might be long, but I found it very helpful because nobody in either of our families has been to uni so it's all very new and to me and I almost fell into the trap of pushing my child into topics she didn't want and the talk made me realise that's not the way to support my child.

They suggested that parents go through all the subjects and options, and places, even non uni options such as apprentices and listen to your child's reasoning and support them, not push them. They said a lot of parents make the mistake of only pressuring their child to consider the choice they want their child to take based on trying to fix their own mistakes they made as young adults themselves, but that it's very important to they choose for themselves.

They'd said there's no such thing as a bad degree, and that things are very different to when our generation went to uni, there's so much more choice and diversity in roles and gave many examples of student doing computing related degrees but ended up in a whole different graduate role, and that sometimes the experience of uni and getting away from parents and following their passion is what shapes the child in a good future employees, making and learning from their own mistakes instead of parents pressuring their kids to avoid their own mistakes instead being encouraged to make their own minds up.

Another thing one speaker had said is that they've had students drop out after being pressured to take subjects they didn't want, sometimes with parents who refused to financially support them if they wouldn't chose what they told them to and ended up utterly miserable.

They'd asked parents to please not imply working in a supermarket means an awful life either, there's no shame in it and they've had so many students seek emotional support because they struggle with the work load and have the added pressure of parents going "look at Matthew, degree in computer science and working in Tesco, what a waste" etc when Matthew might have only done computer science because his parents pressured him too, for the money and he hated it, or some kids realise the jobs their parents want them to have mean they have to move quite far from their family and want to make a life more locally, or introverted and/or anxious kids gets pushed i to highly competitive fields that require a lot of socialising and can be dog eat dog and said it's exactly why parents shouldn't use someone with a degree working in Tesco's as some kind of bad example. It adds more pressure.

They'd also told parents to consider that there's a higher amount of uni applications due to many deferring the last two intakes due to covid and to encourage their kids to be open to more than one u I and more than one subject because highly competitive places are going to be even more competing and not put their eggs all in one basket type of thing.

ohblowmedown · 24/07/2022 14:23

We need the brightest and the best in conservation, environmental science, biosciences etc at the moment.

This, with knobs on. Your DH is talking out of his backside, and I hope your dd doesn't let herself be bullied into anything by him.

mibbelucieachwell · 24/07/2022 14:26

The impression I have as a (Scottish) parent of graduates who are in their early/mid twenties is that many many young people do a one or two year masters after their first degree. Often in a specialised area. None of their friends that I know of went straight into a graduate level job. A few of them did a five year masters, which enrols students as undergraduates, at Glasgow and St Andrews. Their subjects were engineering, geology and chemistry. An environmental management graduate did a one year masters in something similar (sorry I can't remember exactly what).

And some of their friends did first degrees then completely different qualifications.

As you say OP it's so hard to know at the tender age of 17. But there seem to be different paths to the same destination. And knowing which path to take should become easier for your DD once she's further into the course she chooses.

Dreikanter · 24/07/2022 14:28

Has your DD looked at sustainable land management type courses? Reading Uni and several of the agricultural unis offer this type of course (as I’m sure other unis do too).

I previously worked in civil / environmental engineering and switched more into environmental management - it’s reasonably well paid but it’s never going to be City type salaries.

One of my current colleagues is the environmental land manager for a large estate and it’s a varied and hugely interesting job.