Lecturer's child at open day for second time

[Igloo71]

I went with DS to our local uni's open day over the summer. The head of department had their child there (with, I assumed, dad helping out in the background - the little girl was running back and forth to a man who seemed to be a parent). She was interrupting throughout the event, but no issues at all, I assumed it was an emergency childcare situation. DS and I laughed about it afterwards and we both had completely forgotten about it until this morning.

He's now at the offer holder event and the child is there again. He's texting me to say it's completely embarrassing as she is talking to them about her department and the child is interrupting constantly, every 5 minutes at least. She is stopping her talk to speak with the child and my DS is just embarrassed on her behalf.

DS is adamant he will never go to this uni now when it had once been his top choice. I'm left wondering if this is the norm at uni's? I've got no idea if DS should be more flexible with his outlook, he's no idea what it's like being a working mum. But equally, she's got possible childcare on site from the uni students.

This isn't a Russell Group uni, but definitely a highly regarded uni and his offer is relatively high (ABB). What do we think?

@titchy Yes he'll get a loan, yes he'll have to work too to top it up, yes we're going to apply for other bursaries and even a local charity. But do you really think he won't need a bit of help from his mum? Really??

Open Days should either be occasional events or factored into pay and conditions, if they are actually weekly.

Hahahahaha they should. But they aren't and more and more get added every year and we're just expected to get on with it.

@senua

It's a bit concerning. You'd think that a Head of Department would either find childcare or find someone else to do the presentation. Is there really no person in the whole wide world that she could call on? You can understand it happening once but not twice; she obviously didn't learn from last time.

Can your DS speak to current students and ask if this sort of thing is a common occurrence and, if so, does it affect their studies (not necessarily lectures or tutorials but the general conduct of the department).

How easy do it think it is, as a Head of Department, to get your staff to give up their Saturday for no extra pay? Is childcare more readily available on a Saturday because you are a Head of Department?

@senua

It's a bit concerning. You'd think that a Head of Department would either find childcare or find someone else to do the presentation. Is there really no person in the whole wide world that she could call on? You can understand it happening once but not twice; she obviously didn't learn from last time.

Can your DS speak to current students and ask if this sort of thing is a common occurrence and, if so, does it affect their studies (not necessarily lectures or tutorials but the general conduct of the department).

So the solution is for her to exert her managerial muscle (a laughable concept in itself in academia) and force someone else, probably on a lower salary, to do an unpaid Saturday?

I'd be forced to take time off rather than take my child to work. This is standard with a lot of employers, so I guess some of you might not realise this.

This is a bit of a thoughtless comment but maybe you didn't mean it as it sounds. I don't suppose lots of people on this thread work in HE (I don't for sure) so the "some of you might not realise this" is a bit patronising. And as for being forced to take time off work - well as explained here, she is being asked to come into work during her time off so that's not relevant either.

If the child is interrupting with the event and potential students are not getting the full benefit of why they are attending then I think he is right, it is inappropriate. I agree when you say £9k per year is a lot of money and this needs to be seen as an investment in his future so I would go with the gut feeling and send feedback explaining why he will not be taking a place there. I don’t agree with children being taken to parents place of work as a childcare arrangement, it is not the place for them.

You'd think that a Head of Department would either find childcare or find someone else to do the presentation. Is there really no person in the whole wide world that she could call on?

It's highly likely that there was nobody else either willing, available or able. Academic departments are run on an absolute shoestring at the moment.
For the last 5 years I've been the only person running my subject so had to do everything. If I didn't attend an event then my subject wasn't represented.
The pressure to recruit students is immense. I think I would choose to take my child with me rather than miss an event because the risk of not recruiting is too high.

thank you for all of you that have replied. What's made me most sad is that some of you who are clearly lecturers have taken the position that my son who has been raised literally hand to mouth, is being utterly unreasonable. I've been completely sympathetic about your working conditions, open days not being in your contract, etc. It's a shame some of you are unwilling to see that when I said I'd be forced to take the time off for childcare - that was unpaid when my DS was small. Unpaid!! I'm completely sorry that you have to do these days out of good will, but at least you're not missing a day's pay if you don't turn up. thank you for taking that time off, I appreciate it, but please don't view your own circumstances on a par with your prospective students

Your DS are overacting.He won’t see any children on lectures and seminars for sure, open days are the only tricky times because they are on Saturdays and staff basically commit their free time voluntary. Very often both parents are academics so both might be involved. Some people have to be at the offer day because they hold certain admin posts or represent a particular research group at the department. Or someone’s else might become unwell so this mum stepped up at the last moment. Some staff were on strike recently (but not all) so they refused to take up extra duties which made group of staff to choose from for the Open Day/ Offer day much smaller.

There could be many reasons why this lecturer cannot magic up childcare for her pre-schooler at the weekend. University staff tend to be overworked and underpaid. She may not have any local family or friends to look after the child. Your son needs to stop thinking of this relationship with his university as a consumer and transactional one. That attitude will not take him far.
Bit of empathy might be useful.

So many separate points on this.

Firstly, I do think having a pre-schooler with you when you are there to do a presentation is ridiculous, yes. Obviously none of us know the individual's circumstances, but yes, they should have made alternative arrangements. Once, you could - as you did - assume there was some kind of last minute emergency but the fact it has happened the second time indicates she thinks it is fine. It isn't. No, lecturers aren't paid specifically to come in to an open day, but they are paid a professional salary to carry out their duties, and, as a working parent that does sometimes mean getting a babysitter when you need to.

However, the notion you are a 'consumer' and 'paying £9K for a degree, is an odd one.

The idea that he will be spending your money is another odd one. If your income is very low, then he will be on a full loan, and therefore have more money than most students.

His reaction is also extreme. If that were the course and university he wants to go to, then he is wildly over reacting to the fact the one lecturer has brought her child to work with her on a Saturday.

@toughenup

Ffs, your son is a student not a consumer!

A student paying a minimum of £27k, I would say that makes him a consumer. If you were spending this amount of money would you see yourself as a consumer?

You son is overreacting. He should make his final decision based on various factors, not a single incident.

However this woman was being very unprofessional and quite frankly sets the cause of women in the workplace back several years. What a waste of everyone else's hard work.

My own father had to bring me to work when I was younger, I was in a separate room, entertained. IF there was a another parent there why couldn't he have handled her?
I was also a very active and noisy kid.

Like it or not universities have become a business, and lower income families especially are sold a lie. It's not the 9K a year it's the sheer cost of everything else, like accommodation. Students are seen as cash cows and treated like shit. If the staff have an unprofessional attitude towards their job they'll be treated even worse.

[quote Igloo71]@titchy Yes he'll get a loan, yes he'll have to work too to top it up, yes we're going to apply for other bursaries and even a local charity. But do you really think he won't need a bit of help from his mum? Really??[/quote]
Yes. He'll get £9k a year. And three months in the summer that he can work during. Does he have very expensive habits or something?

[quote Igloo71]@titchy Yes he'll get a loan, yes he'll have to work too to top it up, yes we're going to apply for other bursaries and even a local charity. But do you really think he won't need a bit of help from his mum? Really??[/quote]
Actually if he gets a full loan (which he will if you have a very low income) then yes, I would expect him to live on that. My DC receive a good-size loan and I top it up with a small weekly payment - but overall it is probably a bit less than the full loan tbh. They are happy with non-en-suite halls at the cheapest price tho (which your son may be as well, for sure).

I very much doubt that this one lecturer runs the entire university. So your son is being ridiculous to base his decision to go on one lecturer he doesn't like.

There were 20 in my department alone when I attended. And I don't think I was ever in with the lecturer who ran the open day probably because they too busy attending lots of shindigs and trying to shag the new students.

I also think he's going to be thoroughly disappointed when he realises just how shite some university lecturers actually are.

There are a lot of comments that its acceptable because its "academia"

It wouldn't be accepted in the private sector (where people are expected to work over and and above their regular contracted hours) so I'm not really sure why academia is any different.

The expectations of today's students (and what they're expected to deliver in exchange being another conversation....) has changed a lot over the past couple of years, never mind the past couple of decades.

How easy do it think it is, as a Head of Department, to get your staff to give up their Saturday for no extra pay?
The whole idea of an Open Day is to attract the best students. This department seems to be self-sabotaging.
Is childcare more readily available on a Saturday because you are a Head of Department?
You would like think that a HoD would know how to handle a crisis.

@Igloo71

over £9000 per year, we are not wealthy and I'm a single parent. I want to make sure my DS gets good value for money. Does that make him selfish? I guess it does, but he's a consumer so maybe that gives him a right to?

Sums up everything that’s wrong with university now.

I’m a lecturer. No, unsurprisingly, it’s not normal for people to bring their kids to teaching or open days. I don’t know the story here but I’ve literally never seen it happen in over a decade at different universities so I’m quite surprised that it happened twice. Anyway, I can’t see why this makes your DS discount that Uni. He is likely to only be taught one or two modules by this woman and I can pretty much guarantee that she won’t be bringing her kid to classes because that just doesn’t happen. It makes no sense to chuck away the prospect of doing a degree he would like just because a woman at the open day had her kid there. Weird.

at least you're not missing a day's pay if you don't turn up
But you might be subject to disciplinary action if you never turned up. Is that better?

I think the question I’d ask is whether it is usual for staff to bring children onto campus/into class during school holidays, you can’t tell from a couple of open days whether this situation is specific to open days or whether it’s a wider issue. If it is, that could reasonably influence your son’s choice. If she’s the HoD, it’s more likely that all other staff refused/someone was off sick and she had to cover. If she’s Programme Leader rather than Head of dept, then it’s all the more likely she’s had to step in cos no-one else would - she won’t have managerial responsibility for staff, so can’t make others step in. If you get the opportunity to give feedback it would be worth mentioning this was off putting - it’s possible she doesn’t realise or may give her argument as to why someone else should step in.

I think it’s the thing in academia you can be flexible to some extent but in some situations you just can’t at all and you can’t say no, you have to go in even with a child. You can’t cancel open day or offer day.

It’s near impossible to get childcare on a weekend and I don’t blame her to feel disinclined to pull some out of her arse in order to do extra work on top of her actual job. I had a lecturer who brought her baby to lectures. It was a baby in a car seat rather than a verbal pre schooler but it wasn’t ideal. More ideal (for us) that her module being cancelled while she took her mat leave though. If she had asked a student to look after him I think she would have been treated with blank looks. I think your ds’s reaction is OTT but a lot of young people have bought massively into the idea that they are customers and a “I pay your wages” mentality whereas undergrads used to very much understand that they were attending a research institution that did some undergraduate teaching, not a consumer experience.

I think it should have been made clear prior to the open day that it was an informal event, and people were welcome to bring other children if that was the case.

I've been to open days where people have brought the whole family and in those situations, a lecturer's child running around would be neither here nor there.

But if it's been billed as a more formal event, then it's not ideal and I'd expect a child to be told to sit quietly with a book or whatever.