Lecturer's child at open day for second time

[Igloo71]

I went with DS to our local uni's open day over the summer. The head of department had their child there (with, I assumed, dad helping out in the background - the little girl was running back and forth to a man who seemed to be a parent). She was interrupting throughout the event, but no issues at all, I assumed it was an emergency childcare situation. DS and I laughed about it afterwards and we both had completely forgotten about it until this morning.

He's now at the offer holder event and the child is there again. He's texting me to say it's completely embarrassing as she is talking to them about her department and the child is interrupting constantly, every 5 minutes at least. She is stopping her talk to speak with the child and my DS is just embarrassed on her behalf.

DS is adamant he will never go to this uni now when it had once been his top choice. I'm left wondering if this is the norm at uni's? I've got no idea if DS should be more flexible with his outlook, he's no idea what it's like being a working mum. But equally, she's got possible childcare on site from the uni students.

This isn't a Russell Group uni, but definitely a highly regarded uni and his offer is relatively high (ABB). What do we think?

@SpinsForGin. Totally. I haven’t done any research for years, I have no time to. Luckily I’m on a teaching contract. while it’s not expected that I produce any research I do get asked every year what I’m doing with the approx 200 hours a year which is allocated to me in my workload for academic/research. I laugh and I say answering student emails, supporting students, etc. They say that’s all counted in my hours I’m allocated as personal tutor, module leads and course leader. But I think I’m allocated an hour per student that I’m personal tutor for per year or something daft. I’ve only got 25 personal tutees but I’m spending at least an afternoon per week sorting them out. When I say this my boss says don’t do as much. So which emails from students am I meant to ignore? The hysterical ones saying they want to leave, the hysterical ones saying they want to kill themselves, the assignment drafts, the requests for feedback, the questions about something they didn’t understand and want clarifying, the moans about their attendance is wrong and can I tell admin to change it (admin won’t change anything unless i authorise it). I obviously don’t have time to actually investigate attendance so I just tell admin whatever the student tells me to tell them because I’m past caring if they’re lying to me (I don’t think they are)

I’m currently sat in the gp waiting room to talk to them about my stress levels, chest pain, palpitations, inability to sleep. I’ve been doing my end of module report for the external examiner while sat on my iPad and answering emails in the waiting room. I also started answering emails at 7am thjs morning to “make up” the time I knew I would lose at the doctors appointment this morning.

No single parents obviously, as no childcare available at weekends.

Well I don't imagine many single parents working NMW on the shop floor have moved to 8 different cities - in 5 different countries - for their career, since they were 18. And likewise waiting till you are in your 30s or 40s before having DCs also tends to mean your own parents are older and not able to help with childcare.
I have many great local mum friends who live in the same city as their parents, still, and have parents who can do childcare. I can only think of one who is an academic, and she's on a career path that is way lower than she could be, due to wanting to stay local.

@TheMerrickBoy indeed. What most people don't seem to understand is that education at university level is quite different. Knowledge often emerges from interaction - tutorials where students critique and engage with the lecturer and each other generate learning experience. That is why online pay-to-watch courses are inferior.

@SpinsForGin Totally with you there. Open data should be considered a valuable research output. It is not that different than benchmark problems that get published and attract large amounts of citations - for good reason. They advance the field, just in a different way.

@QuebecBagnet

@QuebecBagnet

I’m currently sat in the gp waiting room to talk to them about my stress levels, chest pain, palpitations, inability to sleep. I’ve been doing my end of module report for the external examiner while sat on my iPad and answering emails in the waiting room. I also started answering emails at 7am thjs morning to “make up” the time I knew I would lose at the doctors appointment this morning.

Sending you some un-mumnsnetty hugs

I’m with your son on this. Saturdays, yes, understandable but any other time. Really she had child care issues

*has

@TreronsForTea

It’s clear from this thread that a number of academics view students as an irritating interruption to their research (or childcare issues). In the real world, whether you are a secondary school teacher, a partner in Deloitte, or indeed a senior ICU nurse it is very often the case that you work way beyond your contracted hours for any number of reasons.

I’ve invested time and energy in every single student I’ve encountered, some have presented more challenges than others but I’ve thoroughly enjoyed getting to know them, imparting my expertise and also learning from them.
it’s part of my role and I knew that when I became a qualified nurse many years ago.
I don’t want to derail the thread but I think some academics appear to be entirely self obsessed and devoid of empathy for the young people coming through,.

This thread has already been detailed to Mars 😂 Exactly

All of the waffle about what academics ‘actually do’, where teaching is just a ‘small part’ of their job just emphasises that. Doesn’t really matter to the student, and why should it? Instead the young man has been called entitled and all manner of names.
Also people are happily ignoring the fact that’s it’s not the presence of a child. But said child interrupting.

Anyway I have seen some universities (the better ones) have ‘teaching only’ academics which is a good thing. If as academics claim on here they’re overworked and have too much to do then their university will have to decide what they want them doing.

Anyway I have seen some universities (the better ones) have ‘teaching only’ academics which is a good thing. If as academics claim on here they’re overworked and have too much to do then their university will have to decide what they want them doing.

My university outright refuses to consider teaching only contracts. We're expected to research alongside our teaching as they feel it enhances the quality of our teaching. We've asked if they would consider teaching only contacts to be told it doesn't fit with the vision of the university.
Moving to another university isn't an option for me as there are only 6 in the country that offer my subject and job don't come up very often.

[quote bombytomy]@CarrieHughes "So you've only had 'one' student act like this. But you have the impression that students are entitled? "

I think you didn't really read what I wrote and jumped to some conclusions there. I said precisely the opposite. That most students aren't entitled, that I love teaching, and that am doing my best to help them. You know what, you probably had a bad time in uni. Sorry for you, hope you're in a better place now, but please don't take that out on all the academics.

As for academics being of two types and the first being lazy. Laughable and shows you don't really know the realities of what academics do. I don't even want to entertain your assertion there, there have been examples of what we do on a daily basis on the thread, but can assure you academics work a lot more than your average industrialist. Of course it depends, but in my field I'd have earned a lot more and worked a lot less if I were overseas or in industry.

The ones who say leave then, many are doing that actually. And many are being poached by overseas departments. It's a sad state of affairs for this country... Ultimately the ones who will lose out are your children, not the academics.[/quote]
The point isn’t whether academics work more than an industrialist. It’s their accountability to students.
Separate from this specific incident the general consensus has been academics have so many things to do, students are the least of it.

If you have a problem with your workload take it out on the university, but it’s arrogant to dismiss students. You may be shocked at my assertions but it’s very well known in my field. Which is why more and more employers are turning anyway from degrees - one is seen as a waste of money. Unless it’s from a reputable university. We prefer apprentices now, as we can teach them properly and get them the piece of paper thats just that - paper.

I’ve made all the points I want to and see there are more sensible posters here. Nothing more to be said. The only thing I hope is that this young man isn’t conned into attending university and then not getting a job afterwards. Like so many of the young people who’s CV’s I review. Mostly first generation university students.

Doesn’t really matter to the student, and why should it?

Because the universities wouldn't be funded if academics didn't generate overheads from grants?
Because there would be no scholarship to actually teach the students if academics didn't do research, and we'd all still be teaching what was current knowledge in the 1970s?
Because research contributes to society and students need to also k now how it does?
Because many teaching-only academics would rather be doing research so that the academics that take teaching only jobs are not always those that do as good a job.
Because most teaching-only jobs are temporary anyway (so they are a stepping stone to a research and teaching job).

If a student thinks it doesn't matter whether a department does research, that student needs to find out what universities really are. Hint: they are not schools.

@worstofbothworlds

Doesn’t really matter to the student, and why should it?

Because the universities wouldn't be funded if academics didn't generate overheads from grants?
Because there would be no scholarship to actually teach the students if academics didn't do research, and we'd all still be teaching what was current knowledge in the 1970s?
Because research contributes to society and students need to also k now how it does?
Because many teaching-only academics would rather be doing research so that the academics that take teaching only jobs are not always those that do as good a job.
Because most teaching-only jobs are temporary anyway (so they are a stepping stone to a research and teaching job).

If a student thinks it doesn't matter whether a department does research, that student needs to find out what universities really are. Hint: they are not schools.

Ah, but what does university mean to students? Back in the day, when fewer people attended university was for academic students. Indeed research, a passion for education and the exchange of ideas were all core concepts and people understood this.

However in 2022 it’s sold as the ‘default’ route to getting a job. NOT a place for bright young minds. NOT a place for awakening your curiosity, developing yourself. But to get a job. Many low level admin roles that used to be done be school leavers now require a degree.

As a result people go because it’s the ‘done thing’. And to not go will disadvantage them significantly. They couldn’t care less about research and frankly I don’t blame them. Maybe you’ll say ‘ah, they shouldn’t be in university’. But what are the alternatives?

A ‘degre level’ qualification isn’t synonymous with research btw. There are many professional qualifications which are equivalent to a degree, NVQ Level 6. However all of this isn’t explained to people. It’s either university, or nothing. Trade qualifications, professional certifications are all a black hole that people don’t even know they exist.

In order to solve this problem universities have to be recognised as research institutions. And all the other stuff has to be split back into something else , like polytechnics.

@SpinsForGin
Because I feel the clientele are more forgiving of children’s presence , generally, than people at a university.

In response to why pubs might be better for children than universities

@CarrieHughes I really have no idea what you are talking about. Nowhere on this thread any academic said students come second. You have what we call a "confirmation bias". You are projecting your own experiences or, more likely, what you have interpreted to be your experiences to this thread, which is not even about priorities.

Apprenticeships are great by the way, one thing we agree on.

I can use the same words as you: I’ve made all the points I want to and see there are more sensible posters here. Nothing more to be said.

@worstofbothworlds

Doesn’t really matter to the student, and why should it?

Because the universities wouldn't be funded if academics didn't generate overheads from grants?
Because there would be no scholarship to actually teach the students if academics didn't do research, and we'd all still be teaching what was current knowledge in the 1970s?
Because research contributes to society and students need to also k now how it does?
Because many teaching-only academics would rather be doing research so that the academics that take teaching only jobs are not always those that do as good a job.
Because most teaching-only jobs are temporary anyway (so they are a stepping stone to a research and teaching job).

If a student thinks it doesn't matter whether a department does research, that student needs to find out what universities really are. Hint: they are not schools.

This.

About this answer though: "In order to solve this problem universities have to be recognised as research institutions. And all the other stuff has to be split back into something else , like polytechnics"

I find this to be a rather simplistic view. Universities are not just "research organisations" - research and teaching inform one another and is the purpose of a university - to advance and disseminate knowledge. However, yes universities do need to be recognised as a more advanced and different form of learning, and not synonymous to schools or vocational institutions. The latter could in theory have an important place in society, and some employees might indeed prefer this level - however what happens is that these qualifications are paid less, and are not as valued as university level qualifications by employees at the end of the day. Germany has created such a system starting from high school where students are split into vocational and academic routes, however it has shown to have major disadvantages on society (uninformed students, immigrants deliberately "kept in their place" and not endorsed by teachers, too young to make such a choice etc etc)

I can currently vouch for Accountancy Apprenticeships being the crème-de-la-crème, and difficult to get on, as an alternative to the Uni route.

OP your son is right to think carefully about whether a particular department is going to help him flourish. It's a big decision and he only gets one shot at it. I would also be wary after that experience. I'm sorry you and he have come in for such a battering on this thread. I don't think you have said anything to merit it. Just wanted to say that I hope this hasn't put you off.

I agree with PP that the attitude of some academics on this thread towards students has been really, really shocking. Depressing reading for those of us whose kids are about to go to university.

Oh come off it. Every academic on this thread has said how much they go above and beyond for students, and are overworked as well as doing plenty of extra work out of goodwill. Not a single person has had any problematic attitude towards students.

What you’re really shocked about is that it’s not school, it’s not a shop where you “purchase” education (and no, it isn’t even a luxury gym full of personal trainers) — and we definitely aren’t just so many governesses lined up to be personally employed by the little darlings.

Any prospective student (or parent) who thinks of university study like that, honestly is not going to meet the challenge of doing well in higher education. Students do well if they approach the experience with goodwill and focus, and actually listen to what their lecturers advise them - treating any of the staff like they are “purchasing an education” makes for really bad learning and an inability to think critically and take responsibility for their own work.

My sincere advice to the OP, as I said upthread, is to encourage her son to think seriously about the course, and what he is interested in within the programmes they teach, and how he is going to meet the academic demands of preparing for it — and to treat academic staff with goodwill as people who are there to advise, and who are actually real people who are willing to help him — rather than getting distracted by some teenage idea of what he thinks he should be getting.

Now, the OP and others may not like that advice, but I can assure you it will be far more helpful to her son than indulging in all this stuff about “but he’s purchasing an education and anyone who doesn’t think so has a shocking attitude to students!!!”

I’m with OP on this one. Everyone’s just turned it into a let’s hate on DS pile on

I totally get where you son is coming from @Igloo71.

It’s a lot of money and a big decision. If he can’t talk through things with his mum then who can he for goodness sake! This forum is bonkers at times, absolutely bonkers.

Sounds like you have a great relationship.

I haven’t read the whole thread but if that was the dad of the child in the first lecture then surely he’d have taken her outside 🤔.

I’d totally expect some explanation as to why there was a pre schooler running around (maybe there was).

Sounds very distracting, not ideal for anyone.

Good luck to your son!

My sincere advice to the OP, as I said upthread, is to encourage her son to think seriously about the course, and what he is interested in within the programmes they teach, and how he is going to meet the academic demands of preparing for it — and to treat academic staff with goodwill as people who are there to advise, and who are actually real people who are willing to help him — rather than getting distracted by some teenage idea of what he thinks he should be getting.

I think this is really good advice.
This thread has been full of academics talking about how we go above and beyond support our students ( in my case at the detriment of my own career) and most of us really do understand the challenges of being a first generation student. Navigating HE is tricky at the best of times and more so if you're the first in your family to go. I get that, I really do.

There have been some great insights into how universities work and the workload of academics which could actually stand the OPs son in good stead if he were to choose to read them and take them on board.

He’s 17, witnessed other kids behave inappropriately and felt, in his words, second hand embarrassment. That was probably the only thing he could do, other than stop the lecture and publically call out the other kids there which some people think he should have done

Your son is going to meet all sorts of people when he heads off to university.

He will see students with their arms on their desks and their heads on their arms, sleeping soundly through lectures. He will see students turning up to tutorials and trying to blag their way through them, wasting everyone else's time as well as their own. He will see students dumping their stuff in the library and heading off for loooooonnng coffees, occupying library space others need.

He will have to just get used to the fact that university is not school and there is nobody there to police behaviour. If the behaviour of others is so distracting and bothersome to him then maybe a gap between school and university would be a good thing, so he could get out and see how the world outside of school works?

Oh for goodness sake. Can't believe people questioning anyone's commitment to the job because a child is there. If they weren't committed to the job they wouldn't be there and would be at home doing whatever they normally do on their day off. Such a chuck away comment that deserves just that- to be chucked away. These days are often intended to be more laid back and 'getting to know you'. He's already got an offer. If he is really concerned his academic questions aren't being addressed, he could ask for a 1 to 1 chat at a specific time. Likely the lecturer won't get paid for that either but probably will do it or maybe student support would be more approriate. Honestly, think he needs to lower his expectations. For info do you know many lecturers have been on strike as they have had their pension and contract rights eroded over the past decade. Some are now working 'short of strike action' because they are committed to their jobs and students. An extra event like this would be right on that line. Finally an assumption that the lecturer can afford childcare or has access to childcare.