Lecturer's child at open day for second time

[Igloo71]

I went with DS to our local uni's open day over the summer. The head of department had their child there (with, I assumed, dad helping out in the background - the little girl was running back and forth to a man who seemed to be a parent). She was interrupting throughout the event, but no issues at all, I assumed it was an emergency childcare situation. DS and I laughed about it afterwards and we both had completely forgotten about it until this morning.

He's now at the offer holder event and the child is there again. He's texting me to say it's completely embarrassing as she is talking to them about her department and the child is interrupting constantly, every 5 minutes at least. She is stopping her talk to speak with the child and my DS is just embarrassed on her behalf.

DS is adamant he will never go to this uni now when it had once been his top choice. I'm left wondering if this is the norm at uni's? I've got no idea if DS should be more flexible with his outlook, he's no idea what it's like being a working mum. But equally, she's got possible childcare on site from the uni students.

This isn't a Russell Group uni, but definitely a highly regarded uni and his offer is relatively high (ABB). What do we think?

@TreronsForTea

No, I’m one of the old guard who has been nursing for 30 years plus and my childcare was my responsibility. I have seen more students nurses through their training than I suspect to you’ve had hot dinners. Do not patronise me.

So why are you bleating about wishing academics had been more sympathetic to you over childcare. One minute saying that and the next saying you’re “old guard” and childcare is your responsibility. So which one is it? 🤷‍♀️

And there’s only one person who is being patronising here with your “hot dinners” comments.

This thread is a bunfight already but just to add to it, all three of my DC have been to my lectures at various times when school holidays/availability of childcare did not align with semester dates and their DF was abroad. Never heard any complaints from students nor from senior management.
University is not school, nor is it ICU.
It is a good place to learn about being part of a community though.

@teafourtwo

This thread is a bunfight already but just to add to it, all three of my DC have been to my lectures at various times when school holidays/availability of childcare did not align with semester dates and their DF was abroad. Never heard any complaints from students nor from senior management. University is not school, nor is it ICU. It is a good place to learn about being part of a community though.

And I’ve had students bring small kids to lectures before when childcare has fallen through. Must be my lack of empathy for them which made me say it was ok. 🤷‍♀️

@QuebecBagnet I’ve never bleated in my life !
At no point have I wished or expected ‘academics’ to be sympathetic to my childcare arrangements.
The reality is that being a working parent is tough.
Childcare arrangements fall through - we all know that.
But do I expect a teenage prospective student or indeed his hard working mother to be overly sympathetic to an individual lecturer’s inability to provide adequate childcare cover at a university Open Day ? No, I do not.

I find the passive aggressive digs about ICU interesting too.

Nobody is saying that he is buying an entitlement to a degree.

He is a consumer, the product he is purchasing is education in the form of lectures, tutor support, classes etc. There are many suppliers (the universities) and he has to choose which supplier is offering the product (education) he wants the most.

Once purchasing the education, he must still do the work in order to benefit. Much like a jigsaw…if you buy it but don’t complete it, that’s your problem. Either way, he is a consumer whether the people who deny this like it or not. It’s basic economics ;)

The people who talk about “basic economics” and say that education is a product you purchase were the very ones who instigated the fee system in the first place. If he was truly “purchasing the education”, he’d probably need to pay fees of nearer £18-20k to cover the full economic cost. Or maybe just employ a paid tutor instead.

I find the passive aggressive digs about ICU interesting too.

There are not passive aggressive digs. You were the one who brought up the comparison with ICU: but it’s simply fact to point out that a Saturday open day is not ICU. I’ve had relatives in ICU and have the greatest of respect for the staff, who do an amazing job.

A university open day where I’m there answering informal questions about what modules are available (usually stuff that could have been looked up on the website), and what the social life is like, is not remotely like doing a shift in ICU - and the idea that a seventeen year old boy should be the arbiter of wha counts as professionalism in my job is really quite eye popping tbh.

I have never found students to be entitled and I've taught across the board from plate glass, post 1992 and Russell group unis.

I do find the parents incredibly demanding. Reactions to online learning show that. Where parents are spitting feathers over lack of contact, we've generally found students prefer online lectures because it's accessible, you can watch them repeatedly, and they weren't turning up to lectures anyway. But the students don't admit to their parents that they'd only attended the first 3 lectures most terms.

I am so grateful that safeguarding means I am not allowed to speak to parents about their student DC. I can imagine they'd be on the phone every week!

There does seem to be a mismatch between the expectations of a uni course sold to students (you will be the sole focus of our attention!) Vs. The tools given to academic staff to do the job (sufficient admin, teaching staff, paid childcare for out of hours events etc).

Playing devil’s advocate - would the HoD have been delighted to see a prospective student Rock up with a busy 3 year old to the event and interrupt every few mins? Possibly not.

would the HoD have been delighted to see a prospective student Rock up with a busy 3 year old to the event and interrupt every few mins? Possibly not.

But this happens all the time at Open days! Whole family outings to accompany one potential applicant. Most of the stuff that the central admin people at universities put on for open days is to keep the rest of the family happy while we in the departments talk to prospective students.

Playing devil’s advocate - would the HoD have been delighted to see a prospective student Rock up with a busy 3 year old to the event and interrupt every few mins? Possibly not.

Ha! Oh how little people know about what happens in modern universities! This happens all the time at open days. Maure prospective students often bring their kids. I’ve even had students bring their child to a lecture when childcare has fallen through. The expectation of extreme professionalism that the OP and her son have absolutely don’t apply the other way around.

Every single open day prospective applicants rock up with kids. Last open day one of my colleagues was sat with crayons and paper keeping a toddler entertained so their mum could talk to me in peace. I wasn’t in the slightest bit bothered.

This thread is enlightening. Made me think yesterday of how I feel about being asked to do extra work.

The posters who do say they are forced to do such open days at Uni, or similar in their slightly different jobs, sound down beat and resentful. they are battling for their pensions and conditions by striking, which we all can understand.

I gladly went into work yesterday, on a Sunday 10-4, (we weren't finished but I chose to leave to take ds's to arranged Batman film) to finish accounts, which is a one off. I was asked to, and I was happy to.

But, Those saying the days are unpaid? Unpaid in what way? Totally? You have contracted days and contracted hours. But if you took the job you also took it with the understanding that open days are required, part of the deal. But you consider them totally unpaid? Even though they are included in the package of the salary offered?

They are planned a long time in advance. Plenty of time to organise childcare.

Presumably you want to be there, encouraging future potential students to choose to be taught be you. Or not? Some posters make it sound like they don't like students, or worse still their demanding parents, very much.

Not much of that is coming across though.

I was lucky and went to uni donkeys years ago. Who'd want to be a student now? Paying £9k, plus the recently extended student loans. I'm taking ds to an open day soon. Hoping it will be a nice experience.

Playing devil’s advocate - would the HoD have been delighted to see a prospective student Rock up with a busy 3 year old to the event and interrupt every few mins? Possibly not.

This is pretty standard at open days. Prospective students sometimes bring their entire families!!

But, Those saying the days are unpaid? Unpaid in what way? Totally? You have contracted days and contracted hours. But if you took the job you also took it with the understanding that open days are required, part of the deal. But you consider them totally unpaid? Even though they are included in the package of the salary offered?

When I took the job, open days were occasional events (two or three a year) that took place during the working week. So, no, I did not sign my contract in the understanding that I would be servicing open days every Saturday during term time, on top of my normal working week, with no permission or opportunity to take time off in lieu. My contract says I can’t book annual leave during term time (which is fair enough), it doesn’t say I can’t have a weekend away to visit my elderly parents during term time (it’s not just about childcare) but that is what employers are now imposing.

But, Those saying the days are unpaid? Unpaid in what way? Totally? You have contracted days and contracted hours. But if you took the job you also took it with the understanding that open days are required, part of the deal. But you consider them totally unpaid? Even though they are included in the package of the salary offered?

I think the point being made is that the terms and conditions have changed. Traditionally open days took place during the week but as many schools and colleges are reluctant to let students out of school to attend open days they've been moved to Saturdays to accommodate prospective students. Plus, offer holder days are relatively new ( they didn't exist when I started working at my uni) so the number of events has increased significantly.

I used to organise open days. I knew that if I worked a Saturday I could claim that as flexi time and take it off at a time that suited me. It doesn't work that way for academics, so many of us are attending these events in addition to our contracted hours when we've already worked significantly more hours that week already!!

They are planned a long time in advance. Plenty of time to organise childcare.

While this is true what I can also guarantee is that someone will phone you the night before or in the morning to say they can't attend meaning someone has to step in at the last min. Maybe this is what happened in the situation? It's far better that someone was there even if it meant bring their child.

Presumably you want to be there, encouraging future potential students to choose to be taught be you. Or not? Some posters make it sound like they don't like students, or worse still their demanding parents, very much.

The vast majority of academics love their job and their subject and we really, really want to recruit enthusiastic and capable students to our courses. What we're saying is that the way universities are run and the pressure on academics means we are often having to do this in less than ideal circumstances. I can't imagine the academic in these scenario wanted to bring her child - I'm sure there were a million other things she'd rather be do at the weekend with her family. But she was there ..... I'd argue that shows how much she cares.

Unpaid as in I should be able to officially take a day off in lieu. But due to workload and working 50-60 hours every week it’s impossible. If I do an open day I work 60-70 hours that week. I’m not paid enough to work those hours.

If I tell my boss the workload for the staff in our dept is unmanageable and everyone is working these hours we get told we must be working ineffectivly. God knows how. All I do is teach, mark and prep and answer students emails. All of which is rushed. I will mark a 2000 word essay in 15 mins including feedback. It’s not decent marking but I have no choice. colleagues are leaving in their droves.

Some depts have bigger teams and therefore some staff don’t do a single open day. I do at least 6 weekend events a year and if I miss one the head of school is upset that there’s no representation for my course. We have 6 open days and 4 offer holder days.

@TreronsForTea

To all of those academics who are very unhappy and feel they could earn so much more elsewhere, leave. The majority of students are decent young people who are ambitious and have worked very hard to get to higher education. Older generations have never had to navigate their way through a global pandemic.

Telling academics to leave? Nice. Foresighted too.

@CarrieHughes "So you've only had 'one' student act like this. But you have the impression that students are entitled? "

I think you didn't really read what I wrote and jumped to some conclusions there. I said precisely the opposite. That most students aren't entitled, that I love teaching, and that am doing my best to help them. You know what, you probably had a bad time in uni. Sorry for you, hope you're in a better place now, but please don't take that out on all the academics.

As for academics being of two types and the first being lazy. Laughable and shows you don't really know the realities of what academics do. I don't even want to entertain your assertion there, there have been examples of what we do on a daily basis on the thread, but can assure you academics work a lot more than your average industrialist. Of course it depends, but in my field I'd have earned a lot more and worked a lot less if I were overseas or in industry.

The ones who say leave then, many are doing that actually. And many are being poached by overseas departments. It's a sad state of affairs for this country... Ultimately the ones who will lose out are your children, not the academics.

I’ve always been so in favor of workplaces allowing children at work, mainly shops , pubs etc to be fair. Think it’s so good for the children’s development and social integration. That being said, I get that it doesn’t look right at a uni

I don't know what it's like at other universities but at my institution you get absolutely no credit for attending open days. Research is the only language they speak.

In my appraisal last year I spoke to my head of division about promotion. I run two highly successful courses which recruit incredibly well and have the best graduate outcomes in the faculty. I attend all open days, recruitment events, clearing etc. which eat into my research time. I've brought in significant funding through projects ( which involve delivery not research) and I've been told my little subject area is essentially keeping our department afloat.

I was told my promotion prospects at my institution were practically zero because my research output was so low. On the promotion criteria involvement in open data doesn't even feature. It's completely demoralising.

If I was being selfish then I would step away from the open days etc but I won't because they're too important and I want to help students make the right decisions about higher education.

@Londondreams1

I’ve always been so in favor of workplaces allowing children at work, mainly shops , pubs etc to be fair. Think it’s so good for the children’s development and social integration. That being said, I get that it doesn’t look right at a uni

Why would it be more appropriate to have children in a pub than at a university?

@Londondreams1

I’ve always been so in favor of workplaces allowing children at work, mainly shops , pubs etc to be fair. Think it’s so good for the children’s development and social integration. That being said, I get that it doesn’t look right at a uni

Haha, I was wondering how come so many women manage to work weekends in retail. No single parents obviously, as no childcare available at weekends.

It's not even like you're missing a 'day off' to do an open day in most cases. You're missing a day when you wouldn't be teaching and would probably therefore spend a fair chunk of it doing teaching prep. So you do that on Sunday instead and hey presto, you worked 7 days a week.

Yes it's true that Open Days have always been part of the deal, but to be fair we used to do about four a year tops and now they're every few weeks, so it is harder to get people to cover.

And finally - if you view seminars and lectures as a 'product', that should mean a lot of students are being denied the excellence of the product not because of what academics do or don't do, but because of their peers who don't attend, or contribute, or do the reading. So if they feel dissatisfaction with it, at least some of that dissatisfaction should often be attributed to one another, since they're all in a community. And indeed, in practice, it often is - students often really resent the fact that their peers don't show or engage. But the point is, the teaching experience isn't something we can consistently deliver in the same way, because it depends on everyone who's in the room.

If you view a seminar as something you've bought, I think that's inherently going to damage your interaction and experience within it.

@Londondreams1

I’ve always been so in favor of workplaces allowing children at work, mainly shops , pubs etc to be fair. Think it’s so good for the children’s development and social integration. That being said, I get that it doesn’t look right at a uni

We used to regularly spend the days at mum's work during the holidays, or occasionally dad's work. I'd never really considered before just how much time we spent at work with both of them; but I learned how to sell, how to do accounts, how to use a computer and countless small details that helped me in life. One-offs are quite fun, and it's nice having actual tasks; more regular visits can end up tedious and uncomfortable, though it does encourage reading hundreds of books. I've seen one client's children from primary right through to adult as they've popped in over the years and it's nice to actually know them, I don't perceive their chat to have wasted my time or whatever is perceived to be the issue with having kids about. When DS was tiny, I took DH and DS into work many times when I needed to be present and was also breastfeeding but DH would do everything else; I wonder if that felt normal because of my parents hauling us around. Personally I like seeing everyone's kids and pets on various work calls, or in the office when they occasionally come in. Everyone enjoys their work and their families (most of the time in both cases), but life is busy so the two need to slot around each other. OP's DS would be horrified to know what really goes on in some places of work.