Lecturer's child at open day for second time

[Igloo71]

I went with DS to our local uni's open day over the summer. The head of department had their child there (with, I assumed, dad helping out in the background - the little girl was running back and forth to a man who seemed to be a parent). She was interrupting throughout the event, but no issues at all, I assumed it was an emergency childcare situation. DS and I laughed about it afterwards and we both had completely forgotten about it until this morning.

He's now at the offer holder event and the child is there again. He's texting me to say it's completely embarrassing as she is talking to them about her department and the child is interrupting constantly, every 5 minutes at least. She is stopping her talk to speak with the child and my DS is just embarrassed on her behalf.

DS is adamant he will never go to this uni now when it had once been his top choice. I'm left wondering if this is the norm at uni's? I've got no idea if DS should be more flexible with his outlook, he's no idea what it's like being a working mum. But equally, she's got possible childcare on site from the uni students.

This isn't a Russell Group uni, but definitely a highly regarded uni and his offer is relatively high (ABB). What do we think?

University requires critical thinking and your DS will likely need emotional intelligence too if he is to have a successful career.

I understand that university is new to your family, but I'm concerned that both of you think this might be an appropriate reason to reject a university. It really isn't.

One day in future your DS may have children of his own and will need to juggle childcare with his work commitments.

He might get more from uni if he defers for a year. It would give him a chance to mature and an opportunity to earn some money which sounds like it would help.

OP, does your son actually have to go to university at this point ?
i mean could he get a job that might involve some professional training.
this is often a better option, but largely overlooked, by school pushing university for their own figures.
i worked with a man whose daughter was disapppointed to find that when she finally manged to get a job in her chosen field, despite being very able with a relevant degree, there were people working there who had gone straight in from school and were now ahead of her.
they were the same age as her. the employer simply wanted people who were keen, willing to learn, with aptitude. they took them and advanced them. it was the same with other employers.
she sadly realised that doing a degree had merely delayed her career.

Let's fast forward 14 years to when your DS has to work a Saturday and cant get childcare. 🤔 Maybe lecturers DC has a learning difficulty/anxiety/is being attachment parented. None of DSs business. Because a woman has childcare issues and has to have her child with her at work, doesnt mean she's not professional. It's just a tired, sexist idea. Set DS straight.

I'm assuming this is down to lack of available childcare.
It's a nightmare for working parents at weekends, and probably unavoidable.

I would be very annoyed if I went to an open day at a university and 1 of the lecturer 's children were present and being a pain!! It would make me wonder if the Lecturer would bring the child to lectures. I would choose that University and it needs to be feedback to the university too.
To be a student these days is not cheap!

Could you please explain how research grants subsidise education, as this is the exact opposite of what happens in every university I have worked in?

The £9k fees do not cover the the cost of running an UG degree programme. They are subsidised by PG fees, international student fees, research grants etc.

You still haven't explained. Unless a research grant covers the proportion of the academic's salary for time spent on research, all overheads (space, technical support, library, IT, administration, etc.), the full salary of anyone employed on the grant (plus overheads), and all costs for materials, travel, etc., it can't possibly be subsidising anything. Full research council grants should do this, but most other research funding (e.g. from charities, learned societies, etc.) doesn't.

The £9,250 pa tuition fees do more than cover the cost of running some undergraduate degree programmes (those with good numbers of students and no requirement for labs or specialist equipment), and subsidise higher-cost subjects (for which the additional OfS high-cost subject funding might not be adequate) as well as research.

There are lots of academics whose research grant income only covers costs, not the proportion of the academic's time spent on research. Their salary is entirely funded from tuition fee income, so their research is being subsidised. I'm very acutely aware of this as members of the team I'm partly responsible for are being told they can't have any research time unless they have grant income at least equal to 20% of their salary plus employer pension contributions. This is because tuition fee income is no longer going to be enough to subsidise them as well as cover costs of running the degree programmes.

I agree with your son. He is investing in his future and needs to feel academic and professional standards will be delivered it is important. Private employers wouldn't accept this way of working. If a lecturer can't commit to an open day in a professional manner don't do it.

@Igloo71 I agree with your son and I would have reacted exactly the same way! You go to an open day to listen to someone sell their product and the person is constantly interrupted by a distraction in this case a young child. Surely the lecturer knew this open day was coming up so she would have had ample time to get childcare.

If a lecturer can't commit to an open day in a professional manner don't do it.Would it have been better to have nobody there?Because that is the likely alternative scenario.

She seems like a caring, working mother. If that was me I’d feel even more confident about choosing that particular uni as she obviously cares about her child and that gives her great credibility about what kind of a person she is. No doubt she cares about the students as well.

One of my lecturers brought in her 11/12 year old daughter once because of a school inset day or something and she was good as gold. It won't be a regular occurence seeing as it sounds like the child will be at school during the week anyway.

@Igloo71 I want to step aside from all the other comments on here and just say congrats to your son for going to Uni, for being the first in your family to do so, and as you say, for breaking the mould.
My dad grew up very poor and went to Uni as a mature student, before travelling the world. He is so proud of everything he achieved, and people did try and 'put him back in his box' but he was absolutely determined to get there.
Whilst there are lots of valid comments on this thread, about appreciating the more adult world of academia and Uni, I do hope that some of these comments don't end up discouraging your DS from attending.
FWIW I have been to Uni, DH has been to Uni, (in fact is currently at Uni now for a second go) and we would have been quite surprised to find a small child at a lecture, interrupting. It's not ideal, and reading this thread has highlighted that it is not the lecturer's fault - but it would have still struck me as unusual and (if I were there to listen to the speech / get questions answered and were regularly interrupted and not able to engage) would probably have been irritated by it (and I say that as the mother of a toddler who does absolutely interrupt work meetings etc when I am WFH and she is off nursery even if she is being cared for by DH (I understand that is not the same as I am paid for those hours, I'm more highlighting that I am well aware that it is not easy to stop a determined toddler from interrupting!)

I get this is a big deal to your DS and he wants it to be perfect, because it's a huge step to him. I hope this doesn't put him off from this Uni, I also hope it doesn't put you or him off engaging with all of Uni life.

Good luck to him with his chosen course x

This didn’t happen at any of the uni open days I attended back in the 90s or any that I’ve just attended with my DD. A bit like teachers and parents evenings, I would have thought it is an expectation of the job - as it’s key to getting students in and funding the lecturer’s employment. As a one off I would be sympathetic in case it was a childcare emergency, but twice is a bit much. Has your DS received any feedback requests for either of these events, as that would be a good opportunity to explain the effect this has had on his perception of the uni - even if just to flag up to them that staff childcare might be something they need to give more consideration to for such events.

Unless a research grant covers the proportion of the academic's salary for time spent on research, all overheads (space, technical support, library, IT, administration, etc.), the full salary of anyone employed on the grant (plus overheads), and all costs for materials, travel, etc., it can't possibly be subsidising anything. Full research council grants should do this

You're describing most (all?) UKRI grants, ERC grants, and Horizon Europe grants. These are the big money grants - I know I bring in about a third of my salary this way in the years I have a grant, plus provide employment for others (who also teach).

Wow the people on here are being awful to you op.

Despite what many seem to think, your son IS a consumer. He is purchasing education, and will take on a high debt burden that he will likely be repaying for the remainder of his working life (although admittedly this is based upon income).

I find it absolutely ridiculous that any working person (male or female) would take their child with them. It doesn’t matter whether they are specifically paid for the open evening (although there is the argument to be made that their salary does cover this as their job role profile will have some reference to additional requirements to ensure future students enrol) or not. The moment they agreed to do the open event, this was a working day, and a child should not be present. If she had no childcare, then she should have refused the work commitment, parents have many protections in the working world which mean they cannot face punishment for being a parent without childcare.

There is a huge lack of professionalism in this instance, and if I were your son there would be no way I would attend this university if I had other equal options available. I don’t blame the lecturer though, I blame the university for putting her in this situation, they dropped the ball, and for this reason I would 💯 agree with your son.

Anyone calling him selfish or entitled is missing the point, he has a right to demand excellence, and if his definition of that is not met then he can (as a consumer) choose to purchase his education elsewhere. I know I would.

@Igloo71 some of the responses have been very unfair.
I think the lecturer was unprofessional.
The childcare arrangements of a lecturer is not the concern of you or your DS, nor is their university contract.
Having had 3 DC go through university, 2 during COVID, I would think very carefully about the course and the university your DS is considering.
Contact hours is very important.
My DC had some outstanding lecturers and tutors but they also had some who were utterly work shy and totally lacking in support during COVID.
My DC were motivated and came from a supportive family so they were fortunate compared to many other students.
Unfortunately, there are no guarantees.
I have absolutely no respect for striking academic staff who take out their frustrations on students who have had an extremely challenging time.
You work hard, your DS is ambitious.
It is absolutely not incumbent on you or your DS to take on board the circumstances of academic staff.

Very unprofessional

@PaulGallico

I deliver HE courses in an FE setting. We have open days on Saturdays and this would simply not be allowed. I think your son is right - I would be questioning the lecturers commitment to the job, anticipate future issues and consider studying elsewhere. I think he is being quite astute in his thinking.

I’d actually think the opposite. This shows she’s very committed to her job. Like others have said she doesn’t have to do open days. She could easily have cited childcare issues and refused to have done it. Might have been frowned upon but nothing would be done.

I agree it’s not ideal but she could be a single parent, no family, etc. Just because she has childcare issues at a weekend doesn’t mean she will have childcare issues during the week.

I’ve just done an offer holder day, have done plenty of open days. We’ve got a couple of offer days coming up where there will be nobody from my course there. Which I think is worse but I’ve done my share and I’m busy for the next one. 🤷‍♀️ What would your ds have preferred nobody turn up or someone with a kid.?

I guess tutors are so badly paid they can't afford child care I'm with your son on this one, she can't be counted on. Go somewhere else and maybe drop the uni an email to explain the change of mind.

Oh my God I can’t believe some of the shocking replies on here.

What is it with parenting these days, are you not allowed to speak to your child and tell them stop constantly interrupting. How would you feel if you were having a conversation and someone, every five minutes interrupted, it would definitely piss me off, adult or child.

@Igloo71 a question that might be more useful than continuing to debate your initial question:

Do you have any questions about university that people on this thread might be able to answer? Is there anything that would be helpful to clarify or to explain?

I don't mean this to be at all patronising. A lot of this knowledge is passed down, and feeling unsure about it is one of the barriers to entry for first generation students (and their parents).

This is a pretty low-stakes place to ask questions, and I bet a lot of people would be happy to answer.

"The £9,250 pa tuition fees do more than cover the cost of running some undergraduate degree programmes (those with good numbers of students and no requirement for labs or specialist equipment), and subsidise higher-cost subjects (for which the additional OfS high-cost subject funding might not be adequate) as well as research."

This is entirely not the case in my uni. A well known one. Overheads on My grants go into the pot that balances the sheet at the end of the day. . Not counting the fantastic lab equipment etc that gets used for teaching. Where do public think labs are funded from? Their money? I can only laugh at that 😂 Postdocs hired on my projects contribute to teaching too (under no obligation to, but most want to and do) .That HoD's research is probably partially paying for the op' s son...

Unless of course you're talking about executive mbas, which then, yes do pay for themselves. But mbas are

Haven’t read the full thread but has anyone considered additional needs? I have 2 children with additional needs. One medical, one neurodivergent. Both would have needed to be with me as the main care giver when not with other (trained) care givers. So my daughter with medical needs required constant supervision at this age and my neurodivergent child would have been more easily left with someone but only someone experienced in her care that they knew and trusted. This in our case has only ever been a childminder, if we were lucky enough to have one, or a friend who did some adhoc (paid) babysitting for us but never on weekends. We have lived abroad as a family with grandparents and siblings/extended family in another country or at least 600miles away. So for a weekend open day, yeah, I would have had to bring my child along.

Anyone calling him selfish or entitled is missing the point, he has a right to demand excellence, and if his definition of that is not met then he can (as a consumer) choose to purchase his education elsewhere. I know I would.

Purchasing education? Good luck to him going elsewhere in that case if he thinks that’s what university learning is about. Open days are not “selling a product” as someone said above. They are there to encourage students and answer questions. Approaching higher education as “purchasing education” is a guaranteed way to do very badly in it.

The OP’s DS will find out the hard way that “demanding excellence” is a shit buzzword commercialism management-speak phrase, which has absolutely nothing to do with the real work of learning and studying an academic subject at university level.

Despite the Tory mantras about student choice and blah blah, universities choose students, not the other way around. If he has an offer but doesn’t accept it, no biggie for the university - they over offer by a wide margin and they want students who want to learn and work from their teachers - not those who think they’re buying an entitlement to a degree.

He should instead be thinking about whether he is able and willing to do the work required, and whether the course is right for him, and whether he wants to do their particular programme, and whether he’s going to be able to work hard enough to make the exam conditions of the offer. That’s what the DS needs to be thinking about. Not some prissy notion of whether he thinks someone giving up their free time to answer his questions is up to his teenage ideas about “professionalism”.

OP would be wise to suggest her DS focus on himself and his own work, and not some daft (and sexist) ideas teenagers have about a working world they have no experience of at all.

As other have echo it’s probably outside of normal hours pre schooler hard to get childcare could be paying for term time only! Believe it or not academics are not highly paid to afford constant childcare. She may have been doing the best she can in a tough situation.

I think your son is being very narrow minded this is real life and the real world we live in I don’t see what their child being present at an open day has anything to do with his experience.