Lecturer's child at open day for second time

[Igloo71]

I went with DS to our local uni's open day over the summer. The head of department had their child there (with, I assumed, dad helping out in the background - the little girl was running back and forth to a man who seemed to be a parent). She was interrupting throughout the event, but no issues at all, I assumed it was an emergency childcare situation. DS and I laughed about it afterwards and we both had completely forgotten about it until this morning.

He's now at the offer holder event and the child is there again. He's texting me to say it's completely embarrassing as she is talking to them about her department and the child is interrupting constantly, every 5 minutes at least. She is stopping her talk to speak with the child and my DS is just embarrassed on her behalf.

DS is adamant he will never go to this uni now when it had once been his top choice. I'm left wondering if this is the norm at uni's? I've got no idea if DS should be more flexible with his outlook, he's no idea what it's like being a working mum. But equally, she's got possible childcare on site from the uni students.

This isn't a Russell Group uni, but definitely a highly regarded uni and his offer is relatively high (ABB). What do we think?

@nightwakingmoon

Anyone calling him selfish or entitled is missing the point, he has a right to demand excellence, and if his definition of that is not met then he can (as a consumer) choose to purchase his education elsewhere. I know I would.

Purchasing education? Good luck to him going elsewhere in that case if he thinks that’s what university learning is about. Open days are not “selling a product” as someone said above. They are there to encourage students and answer questions. Approaching higher education as “purchasing education” is a guaranteed way to do very badly in it.

The OP’s DS will find out the hard way that “demanding excellence” is a shit buzzword commercialism management-speak phrase, which has absolutely nothing to do with the real work of learning and studying an academic subject at university level.

Despite the Tory mantras about student choice and blah blah, universities choose students, not the other way around. If he has an offer but doesn’t accept it, no biggie for the university - they over offer by a wide margin and they want students who want to learn and work from their teachers - not those who think they’re buying an entitlement to a degree.

He should instead be thinking about whether he is able and willing to do the work required, and whether the course is right for him, and whether he wants to do their particular programme, and whether he’s going to be able to work hard enough to make the exam conditions of the offer. That’s what the DS needs to be thinking about. Not some prissy notion of whether he thinks someone giving up their free time to answer his questions is up to his teenage ideas about “professionalism”.

OP would be wise to suggest her DS focus on himself and his own work, and not some daft (and sexist) ideas teenagers have about a working world they have no experience of at all.

'Universities choose students'? Complete BS. This may be true for oversubscribed unis (see - Oxbridge, some RG's) but unis make the effort to get butts in seats. Why else do we have things like clearing, and universities giving unconditional/very low offers (no, not for disability, circumstances or anything like that).

Some students have the idea that payment = degree and that's wrong. Just like those people who think paying for tutors = A*.
But this attitude is taken too far when students are treated as charity cases. Not in relation to this thread but the general attitude shown by quite a few 'academics', students should be grateful for whatever scraps they get. Your institution forcing you to do 'unpaid work' isn't the students' problem.

Standards vary massively across universities, having spent the better of a decade attending university, recruiting, working with/managing degree apprentices. Maybe 'your university' has really high standards, you're 'truly passionate' blah2 but that doesn't mean all universities are.

I hope the OP hasn't been put off by the snobbish attitudes on this thread. Looks like she's left. Way to go for 'widening participation'.

And in my university the student fees pay fir less than 50% of the cost of teaching, the remainder of which is subsidised by research funds, central funds, endowment and many other sources. Not even including the teaching done by postgraduates and post docs and researchers paid for by soft grant money, the labs and equipment paid for by research funds and grant soft money, the resources, buildings and posts paid for by legacies, donations, alumni, and so on. The actual fees cover nothing like what parents have been led to believe.

Not to mention the enormous amount of additional unpaid goodwill work, routinely done by both academic and non-academic staff to keep the whole thing going. One key aspect of goodwill is that it also assumes the students approach their part with goodwill too. Without that, they will quickly find what their fees buy them is even less. One of the current strike aspects is working to contract. Now on this thread OP and others seem to want it both ways. They think academics should work to a contract, but also that they can “demand excellence”. Well working to contract doesn’t pay for extra goodwill stuff like being available on a Saturday, unless you pay a hell of a lot more than the current fee level students are paying.

Bottom line is that even though the fees are a lot of money (and most of us hate he fed regime), it still doesn’t pay enough for what students think they can “demand”. Perhaps, if they want to “demand excellence”, their parents should either be willing to a). not vote Tory/Lib Dem; b). pay more - like top of the range US universities; or c). suggest their children get realistic about focusing on their own contribution to higher education instead of being entitled and prissy about something someone is doing to assist them.

'Universities choose students'?
Complete BS.
This may be true for oversubscribed unis (see - Oxbridge, some RG's) but unis make the effort to get butts in seats. Why else do we have things like clearing, and universities giving unconditional/very low offers (no, not for disability, circumstances or anything like that).

No - they apply; we make offers; they accept or don’t. They aren’t “purchasing education”, they are applying to a university to work and learn. If someone wants to “purchase education” (a nonsense phrase), a university is not for them.

As a long time professor in a large department at a Russell Group Uni, who has participated in more open days than I can remember, I must say I have never, ever encountered any of my colleagues bringing young children to open days or to teaching- neither to seminars nor to lectures. I would find it off-putting and unprofessional. We have a sort of rota of responsibilities like this, and we consider it very important. It’s not only for PR. We want to make sure potential students know about us, what we do and do not do academicly, how we differ from our closest competitors, and what they can expect if they come to our department. We give them time to meet and talk to current students, each other, to try their hand at various activities, as well as sitting through mini-lectures. We encourage them to get in touch with us and our current students if they have any questions. Why can’t OP’s son reach out and contact current students in the department?

@nightwakingmoon

*'Universities choose students'? Complete BS. This may be true for oversubscribed unis (see - Oxbridge, some RG's) but unis make the effort to get butts in seats. Why else do we have things like clearing, and universities giving unconditional/very low offers (no, not for disability, circumstances or anything like that).*

No - they apply; we make offers; they accept or don’t. They aren’t “purchasing education”, they are applying to a university to work and learn. If someone wants to “purchase education” (a nonsense phrase), a university is not for them.

You're getting very hung up on the word 'purchase' for some reason. Yes, unis make offers, but the best students, the ones they really want will have several. Just like how employers go the extra mile to court the best graduates (while plenty of graduates complain they 'can't find jobs'). It's unis who needs the best to choose them , not the other way around.

I've read all of OP's responses, but not all 11 pages of the others, so apologies if I'm repeating anything here.

My DH is a lecturer and his department used to book him to do the open days (always Saturday, not a work day for him) and assume he would show up. There's no offer of childcare for lecturers; it's just assumed they have a spouse without work or other commitments at that time.

Once, I did have a work commitment, and he felt entirely justified in bringing our adorable (to us ) 3-4 yr old DS with him. Of course, he's a Man, and being a Man with a Penis and Everything, the fact that he was parenting was admired by all and sundry. Songs were sung that day of the Man Parent and his Son.

I digress, sort of. If your DS is so put off by this experience, by all means, he should go someplace else. Anywhere but the Uni with staff who manage to be competent enough for him to want to attend, yet with the audacity to have no childcare (or whatever the particular circumstances are here).

If any of you turned up to your child school parents' evening (outside teachers' working day) to find that your child's teacher's small child was there interrupting throughout (for the second time running) would you be as accepting of 'childcare issues'?

I’d say not the norm but you don’t know the circumstances behind the reason for the child being there.

Also screen time isn’t a fail safe solution either even if I do give my kid the iPad she’d be running around and chatting to people around.
There could be a million reasons why the kid was there maybe it was pure desperation on her part. Maybe she had a babysitter fall through and couldn’t find anyone else to do it for her. Maybe there was another one reason for it. I wouldn’t dismiss my first choice uni over it though!

" Not in relation to this thread but the general attitude shown by quite a few 'academics', students should be grateful for whatever scraps they get"

We are trying our best so students don't get scraps but get the best . I'm working 60 hours with little pay and cuts to my pension. Not to brag but I am good at my field and would've made so much more in the US or in EU. I'm passionate about my subject and also about teaching it, getting that new advancements and kit to my students. So no, mine aren't absolutely getting scraps.

But, make no mistake, they're not my customers just because they are paying a partially the cost of offering their degree to a charitable organisation. They're students. If they don't study, and work hard, they aren't entitled to a degree. If they act inappropriately and will think they will be my customer or boss somehow, they won't be welcome in my classroom. Luckily we choose (yes we choose) ones who are sensible and show promise. In my whole career I recall only one student who did act like this. He has been swiftly kicked out without his degree.

To all of those academics who are very unhappy and feel they could earn so much more elsewhere, leave.
The majority of students are decent young people who are ambitious and have worked very hard to get to higher education.
Older generations have never had to navigate their way through a global pandemic.

"To all of those academics who are very unhappy and feel they could earn so much more elsewhere, leave.
The majority of students are decent young people who are ambitious and have worked very hard to get to higher education."

If that was for me, I am happy and love what I do. But I definitely would've earned a lot more elsewhere. Its not a priority for me, but u empathetic threads like this annoy me.

Likewise this generation of academics also had to navigate a pandemic. Not sure if you realise that. For every 70 students on zoom for an hour, there's been 5 hrs of video rehearsing and tens of hours of online content creation. The majority of academics are also decent people you know...

*unempathetic

It’s not the responsibility of students to shoulder the shortcomings of the higher education system.

Thank you to all of the posters who have empathised and offered support. We had a long chat today and talked through his feelings and I mentioned some of the points raised. Remember, he never said unprofessional and he was entirely sympathetic about what we don’t know about this lady’s life. But he did say that whilst he recognised she was struggling (like she was the first time we visited) with the child, it made for a really disjointed and confusing presentation. It was distracting. And this was why he also felt embarrassed because he felt for her, he’s not devoid of empathy. However, he is planning on speaking with a student via unibuddy for this uni and another he’s interested in. He and I have met some perfectly warm and supportive academic staff at our visits, really inspirational and incredibly encouraging to DS. I can see there are staff like this on this thread too who have reached out with ideas and kind offers of help.

@bombytomy

" Not in relation to this thread but the general attitude shown by quite a few 'academics', students should be grateful for whatever scraps they get"

We are trying our best so students don't get scraps but get the best . I'm working 60 hours with little pay and cuts to my pension. Not to brag but I am good at my field and would've made so much more in the US or in EU. I'm passionate about my subject and also about teaching it, getting that new advancements and kit to my students. So no, mine aren't absolutely getting scraps.

But, make no mistake, they're not my customers just because they are paying a partially the cost of offering their degree to a charitable organisation. They're students. If they don't study, and work hard, they aren't entitled to a degree. If they act inappropriately and will think they will be my customer or boss somehow, they won't be welcome in my classroom. Luckily we choose (yes we choose) ones who are sensible and show promise. In my whole career I recall only one student who did act like this. He has been swiftly kicked out without his degree.

So you've only had 'one' student act like this. But you have the impression that students are entitled? If you'd had several bad experiences it makes sense, but not this.

However.. as I mentioned upthread... exams coming out with major mistakes. Lecturers consistently not available/cancelling office hours. Module content unclear, inconsistent, sometimes even wrong. So whatever your anecdotal experience, mine is a direct contradiction.
Not to brag, but I was an excellent student, and so was every single one of my apprentices. Our field is practical, anybody expecting spoon-feeding would fail (in fact most of us now have multiple professional qualifications). All we wanted was the education we'd been promised. Is that an 'inappropriate attitude'?

I will concede that it may differ between fields. In ours most make lots in industry. Researchers etc are prevalent. So in my humble opinion (and observation) there are 2 types of academics.
The ones too lazy to make it in industry (demand for my course is exponential, not enough people, no fight for academic positions). And the ones who truly love teaching. Unfortunately the latter are far and few in between.

*also to add consistently not available is during their designated hours. Not students emailing at midnight and expecting replies

@wentworthinmate

I guess tutors are so badly paid they can't afford child care I'm with your son on this one, she can't be counted on. Go somewhere else and maybe drop the uni an email to explain the change of mind.

What childcare is available on a Saturday? Childminders ime don’t do weekends, nursery is shut. 🤷‍♀️ Guess she could have used a babysitter but maybe she doesn’t feel happy about using unregistered, non qualified childcare.

@QuebecBagnet what planet are you on ?
If only all the academics had come out in sympathy when I required childcare at 6 am or night duty working in ICU

[quote TreronsForTea]@QuebecBagnet what planet are you on ?
If only all the academics had come out in sympathy when I required childcare at 6 am or night duty working in ICU[/quote]
Is that as a nursing student? if you had one or two shifts where you couldn’t get childcare, you could have swapped your shift. The academic couldn’t move the offer holders day but she cared enough to still do it.

If you’re a qualified nurse with childcare issues your ward manager will normally accommodate that. Certainly been the case on every ward I’ve worked at in over 15 years of working for the nhs.

And I’ve certainly advocated for my nursing students when they’ve Had childcare issues. Negotiated with their placement area to ensure they only get shifts they can manage. So yes, I did come out in sympathy. Same as when one of my students rang me the other weekend and I went into the hospital at a weekend to see them due to them needing support urgently.

No, I’m one of the old guard who has been nursing for 30 years plus and my childcare was my responsibility.
I have seen more students nurses through their training than I suspect to you’ve had hot dinners.
Do not patronise me.

Yeah we had this at work once. A very senior manager brought their child to work one day, no idea why. Child was about 7 or 8 and he sat on the floor in the corner of the meeting room colouring in or something, but piped up with comments throughout our meeting. Cringe! Senior manager parent looked pleased as punch each time the snotty child spoke up. Bleugh!!

Seems to me that the only acceptable route then, is to reschedule all these open days and offer holders days (which did not exist until recently), to during the working week.

If students should expect that academics must have childcare, and should only be working at their contracted times, then they can also expect that they should have to take time off school to attend an open day instead.

Academia is not ICU. No school applicant is going to die if they have to miss a day of school to attend an open day. (Nor is anyone going to expire if a child is present while students are asking questions about what kind of nightlife the university has, or whether here are opportunities to do amateur dramatics, which are both things I routinely get asked at open days.)

It’s clear from this thread that a number of academics view students as an irritating interruption to their research (or childcare issues).
In the real world, whether you are a secondary school teacher, a partner in Deloitte, or indeed a senior ICU nurse it is very often the case that you work way beyond your contracted hours for any number of reasons.

I’ve invested time and energy in every single student I’ve encountered, some have presented more challenges than others but I’ve thoroughly enjoyed getting to know them, imparting my expertise and also learning from them.
it’s part of my role and I knew that when I became a qualified nurse many years ago.
I don’t want to derail the thread but I think some academics appear to be entirely self obsessed and devoid of empathy for the young people coming through,.

Your son is being ridiculous

@A580Hojas

It's not ideal is it? You could understand an emergency lack of child care sort of situation but twice? Lots of working people have to sort childcare on Saturdays!

It’s unpaid work. I am a teacher and have worked many school fairs at weekends. I always had my 4 children there when they were younger, no kids, no me. Your son is being ridiculously precious.