Lecturer's child at open day for second time

[Igloo71]

I went with DS to our local uni's open day over the summer. The head of department had their child there (with, I assumed, dad helping out in the background - the little girl was running back and forth to a man who seemed to be a parent). She was interrupting throughout the event, but no issues at all, I assumed it was an emergency childcare situation. DS and I laughed about it afterwards and we both had completely forgotten about it until this morning.

He's now at the offer holder event and the child is there again. He's texting me to say it's completely embarrassing as she is talking to them about her department and the child is interrupting constantly, every 5 minutes at least. She is stopping her talk to speak with the child and my DS is just embarrassed on her behalf.

DS is adamant he will never go to this uni now when it had once been his top choice. I'm left wondering if this is the norm at uni's? I've got no idea if DS should be more flexible with his outlook, he's no idea what it's like being a working mum. But equally, she's got possible childcare on site from the uni students.

This isn't a Russell Group uni, but definitely a highly regarded uni and his offer is relatively high (ABB). What do we think?

@nightwakingmoon great post. Especially about the diversity of work academics do and the discrepancies between that and what the public think we do.

"Sorry, I don’t follow. You say that single mother academics can’t afford to take a nanny, but then say it has become usual to do so?"

No that it's become usual to take children to conferences. It's a difficult problem. Imagine you're expected to go to scientific conferences but your grant only pays for you, not for child care and not for your child's airfare or if your dh comes, his travel. You either rely on your dh or parents, if you have any, to look after your child, or pay for your child to come and find a carer. Often these conferences are overseas, imagine Mexico or somewhere. Try finding an hour of childcare in a foreign country while you present. Asking colleagues is of course embarrassing. It is a very tricky situation. I personally asked my mom to come help as she could look after for a bit but not the entire time.

"Am I missing that “presenting” takes several hours or something?"

Depending on the context, it can take hours to chair a session, attend panels etc.

My point is, one shouldnt instantly judge, oh how unprofessional but realize there may be some context.

@lovelyweathertoday

Open Days should either be occasional events or factored into pay and conditions, if they are actually weekly.

Either way, working whilst looking after a young child means that both work and childcare is done badly.

Do you think this could be one of the reasons why academics are on strike at the moment? Terms and conditions are pretty poor, much is expected on top of contracted hours. Could also be that as colleagues were on strike, if HoD hadn't staffed the event with child, it would have had to be cancelled. She was doing what she could in difficult circumstances.

@GCAcademic

Interestingly, this thread prompted me to research approaches to in-person and virtual open days across institutions - these vary enormously; so clearly some institutions understand that they can promote themselves without overburdening staff; others do not.

You’re not going to get a sense of the extent of these open days by looking online. This term’s open days are largely for offer holders and so are not advertised on university websites. At many universities these are a weekly occurrence.

Yes! That poster quoted suggests approvingly that some institutions do Saturday open days less than others. But this may not be for particularly laudable reasons. The institutions who aren’t offering as many in person open days, or open days at the weekend, may be far less engaged in attracting more applicants from wider backgrounds.

Online open days, whilst they sound great to people who haven’t experienced them, don’t work that well. During lockdown, one of my colleagues did an entire question and answer open day session where forty school applicants refused to turn their cameras on (though fired questions at him from behind blank backgrounds, while he was the only participant with a camera turned on). Now the entire idea of an open day is to interact more informally, not for the applicants to sit in their pyjamas listening behind a two way mirror to a lecture or presentation of information they could just as well have looked up on the university website instead.

Paradoxically, an attempt to be accommodating and fair to potential candidates out of goodwill seems to be being perceived as some kind of “unprofessionalism”. My job at an open day is to be friendly, informal and approachable - if anything, precisely the opposite of some idea of “businesslike” or “professional”.

Fundamentally, I’m not “promoting” my university when I do an open day; I’m there to help applicants make an informed choice by answering questions that a lecturer can be most helpful with, and I’m there to encourage applicants to make the best choice for them, dispel myths and give them a taste of the subject at a university level. I do this because I love my subject and I want to enthuse applicants about it, and encourage kids to apply who might do really well. I’m not doing “marketing” or interviewing people for a job. I’m engaging in a human interaction in order to be informative and answer questions that will help applicants. Yes, it’s crappy for us that this is expected to be a goodwill task. But ultimately we’re doing it for the students, not to be sneered at because it isn’t like work experience at a law firm or whatever.

The lecturer's childcare (or lack the rod) has no bearing on how good a fit a university is surely?

*thereof

Imagine you're expected to go to scientific conferences but your grant only pays for you, not for child care and not for your child's airfare

Another solution is that many academic women don't have children. It's a sacrifice a lot of academic women make, because - needs must, sometimes.

@LaChanticleer

Imagine you're expected to go to scientific conferences but your grant only pays for you, not for child care and not for your child's airfare

Another solution is that many academic women don't have children. It's a sacrifice a lot of academic women make, because - needs must, sometimes.

..lots of conferences going online but still an issue.

Why on earth would we want to include women who have children in activities that contribute to the creation and dissemination of new knowledge in our society?

Or rather exclude!

We don't, but in the past, academia has not been very female family friendly - it's modelled on the single man living in college rooms, or the married man, with a stay at home wife, or one with a far less demanding career, who facilitates his career.

Many academic women of my generation just couldn't/didn't have children because it just didn't seem possible. Prejudice against mothers, over-work, no chance to meet a suitable partner, minimal maternity leave - almost every university I've worked at over the last 35 years has offered only the statutry minimum for maternity leave.

It's changing, but only very slowly. A lot of female academics have only one child or never manage any - because of the circumstances of the job.

A lot of female academics have only one child or never manage any - because of the circumstances of the job.

Yep, I only have one child because it would be absolutely impossible for me to have more and still do my job. It was a conscious decision which was directly influenced by my career.

The lecturer's childcare (or lack thereof) has no bearing on how good a fit a university is surely?
It wasn't 'a lecturer', it was the Head of Department. If she can't motivate her staff to attend the event and makes a hash of her own attendance, then it's not a good advertisement for said Department. What else will they not care about / mess up?

Having said that, beware OP of placing too much importance to the current set-up; staff, and the modules they teach, can change at the drop of a hat. Things can change between Open Day and your DS starting his degree and, even, during the degree.

In other words, that HoD who was juggling childcare might've been writing a research grant on that saturday, which would've gone into subsidising your son's education?

Could you please explain how research grants subsidise education, as this is the exact opposite of what happens in every university I have worked in?

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne

In other words, that HoD who was juggling childcare might've been writing a research grant on that saturday, which would've gone into subsidising your son's education?

Could you please explain how research grants subsidise education, as this is the exact opposite of what happens in every university I have worked in?

Where do you think all the science departments, staff and their equipment come from?

@saraclara

Your daughter is paid for those changed shifts though, surely? Academics do this on their day off.

Could you please explain how research grants subsidise education, as this is the exact opposite of what happens in every university I have worked in?

The £9k fees do not cover the the cost of running an UG degree programme. They are subsidised by PG fees, international student fees, research grants etc.

[quote bombytomy]@nightwakingmoon great post. Especially about the diversity of work academics do and the discrepancies between that and what the public think we do.

"Sorry, I don’t follow. You say that single mother academics can’t afford to take a nanny, but then say it has become usual to do so?"

No that it's become usual to take children to conferences. It's a difficult problem. Imagine you're expected to go to scientific conferences but your grant only pays for you, not for child care and not for your child's airfare or if your dh comes, his travel. You either rely on your dh or parents, if you have any, to look after your child, or pay for your child to come and find a carer. Often these conferences are overseas, imagine Mexico or somewhere. Try finding an hour of childcare in a foreign country while you present. Asking colleagues is of course embarrassing. It is a very tricky situation. I personally asked my mom to come help as she could look after for a bit but not the entire time.

"Am I missing that “presenting” takes several hours or something?"

Depending on the context, it can take hours to chair a session, attend panels etc.

My point is, one shouldnt instantly judge, oh how unprofessional but realize there may be some context.[/quote]
I think you are misunderstanding me. I’m not saying that having a child interrupting you as you talk is “unprofessional”. I’m saying that it would diminish the value and impact of the presentation, to the point that you may as well not have bothered. My analogy of the actor’s child in stage talking over their lines. Or a surgeon’s kid in theatre grabbing the instruments from their hand. I mean, it’s hard enough to have a casual conversation with a child interrupting, never mind absorbing complex and innovative ideas.

And to repeat, I am not criticising the lecturer in OP’s scenario. That was completely different, in terms of the task at hand and its importance to the job.
I do also understand what you are saying about why someone might have to take a child with them, and how that might be OK at informal parts of the event. But it’s the very narrow “Up on stage being interrupted by a preschooler” that’s just can’t get my head around.

Also, you say that it could be hours if chairing sessions, attending panels etc- surely a preschooler can’t just hang around throughout all that? And a final question- what if the subject matter is not suitable for children (as in adult themes eg a criminology or psychology academic)?

Unprofessional but I wouldn’t be making a decision about my future based on one lecturers child being there on a weekend which is essential the lecturers day off

Not professional but I'd assume they had no other option - single parent outside of normal working/childcare hours. I doubt the man was her dad unless he was also working there. Your sons reaction was very odd though. Why was he embarrassed? It was just a real life situation. Why is it a reason to not go there?

I haven’t read the full thread because so much of the first few pages were depressing but at our place there are 4 open days a year (minimum) and two offer holder days academics are expected to work, unpaid. That’s six days to find childcare for, so I don’t blame this academic for not.

Added to which, strikes and ASOS are ongoing, which probably means she’s had her pay affected and may not be able to afford extra childcare.

It sounds like your son would qualify for support from the widening participation team, who might be able to get him a separate convo with this lecturer, or answer his questions about the child…is he taking any of this up? Particularly if he’s a young carer

I was a lecturer for two years at a decent university.
We took it in turns to do the open days as yes they are on Saturdays and not paid.
None of us would have brought a child with us, its bonkers, but like a pp said you are often very loosely managed and left to get on with it.
So if this person always does this it's unlikely she'd be told to stop others probably beef about it a lot though...

For goodness sakes - it's not that hard to find Saturday childcare. And @DrMarple 'no benefit to' you so you'd appear completely unprofessional while promoting your workplace? I'd be wondering about your commitment too, as surely it is of definite benefit that perspective students, who contribute to your salary, take up their place.
If the father was there first time he should have removed the child. The second time (and the fact this one person has done this twice leads me to believe perhaps it IS part of her job) it was completely inexcusable. If childcare is so difficult let someone else do the open/holders day. It's not like these days aren't scheduled well in advance, and if you are head of department surely it is expected you attend.
Your sons reaction is extreme though, as hopefully this is isn't a day to day occurrence.

If childcare is so difficult let someone else do the open/holders day.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

You're assuming there is someone else who can do these events.

Before I became an academic I organised these events for a university and getting staff to attend on a weekend was always the most challenging part.

HoDs aren't obliged to attend these events anyway (it's quite rare for them to attend at my uni) so the fact she was there could suggest she was doing it because nobody else could/would.

Surely it's better to have some representation rather than non at all?

it's not that hard to find Saturday childcare.
For a preschooler who is only used to going to nursery and her mum? Where? Where is this mythical easy to find childcare?
One of my DCs has the occasional weekend playdate but I couldn't rely on that for a specific weekend (I've tried and failed at that before). The other has a few friends but most seem to have uber cautious parents who won't do playdates yet. In fact that DC was due to have a short outdoor playdate this weekend but the friend has COVID!
They both went to a CM preschool who did the odd Saturday but who doesn't take any school age children now.
And one of them went to a different CM for a while after school but that CM has drastically reduced her numbers and never did Saturdays anyway.
I could possibly pay my DM's train fare but chances are she'd have a Ramblers trip that weekend.
Most academics have moved country let alone city so "get the GPs to step in" is a forlorn hope.

Everyone who keeps saying “someone else should do it” needs to remember that in many departments most staff are taking “action short of a strike” and will not only be refusing to come in on a Saturday but may well also be giving this woman grief for doing so. Would it be better for there to be nobody to speak to? And it’s very much not unknown to get a call on the day of an open day to be asked to come in because someone else is ill or has “forgotten”. HoD would probably feel obliged to attend in those circumstances.

@grapewines

He's being very extreme. It's not ideal, but it doesn't mean it's a shit uni, or that the child is there day to day.

Maybe he should be a bit understanding about other people's circumstances not being ideal all the time.

This ^^

I doubt very much that the child will be around at weekday lectures, so DS needs to get over it. Changing his uni destination because the lecturer didn’t pay for childcare during their unpaid weekend work seems silly and rather petty.