Lecturer's child at open day for second time

[Igloo71]

I went with DS to our local uni's open day over the summer. The head of department had their child there (with, I assumed, dad helping out in the background - the little girl was running back and forth to a man who seemed to be a parent). She was interrupting throughout the event, but no issues at all, I assumed it was an emergency childcare situation. DS and I laughed about it afterwards and we both had completely forgotten about it until this morning.

He's now at the offer holder event and the child is there again. He's texting me to say it's completely embarrassing as she is talking to them about her department and the child is interrupting constantly, every 5 minutes at least. She is stopping her talk to speak with the child and my DS is just embarrassed on her behalf.

DS is adamant he will never go to this uni now when it had once been his top choice. I'm left wondering if this is the norm at uni's? I've got no idea if DS should be more flexible with his outlook, he's no idea what it's like being a working mum. But equally, she's got possible childcare on site from the uni students.

This isn't a Russell Group uni, but definitely a highly regarded uni and his offer is relatively high (ABB). What do we think?

@Igloo71

To me it sounds like university contracts haven’t kept up with other businesses. It’s disgraceful. Assuming perspective students know this and being disgusted they don’t…. Maybe ask your visitors

They're not businesses for the umpteenth time. Fees are fixed by law, income is therefore mostly fixed. Costs - and staff is the main one, increase year on year.

All of you academics need to really wake up to the fact that kids don’t know you’re giving up your time. Why would they?

This is an odd question & quite aggressive.

Most professional jobs are 9-5, Monday to Friday. Saturday & Sunday are the weekend, and for most people, two days free of paid work. Scheduled University classes don't run on a Saturday (generally). So it's a fairly natural assumption that someone who normally teaches Mon-Fri is working extra on a Saturday.

And I fully support action over that kind of cut. Shocking. But blaming students for open days at a weekend is just ridiculous. That’s a working culture which has evolved presumably?

I think all this is irrelevant to the OP though - although I'm glad it has raised some awareness. It sounds as if he's taking a more rounded approach to his decision which is good.

You might have missed my earlier post - easily done! I'll repeat - why is he choosing to stay local - it sounds like it might be out of guilt and to help you. It's possible his initial dissatisfaction is him expressing that actually he doesn't want to stay at home? Please explore this with him and encourage him to go further afield if it provides a better opportunity.

but when I looked round unis all the open days were on weekdays during office hours. I remember being allowed to have the day off sixth form every time I had a uni open day

We've had to change to Saturdays as schools have become increasingly reluctant - I mean, really reluctant - to allow students time away to attend Open Days.

Definitely raised my awareness, and yes he is looking at other options now.

I've only got halfway through the thread, but so far no-one seems to be recognising that the child was interrupting the woman's talk every five minutes.

If you have to take your child to work (and of course lots of people have to do sudden extra shifts at a weekend and manage childcare) then they shouldn't be being allowed to distract from your work. Especially when you're speaking to an audience.

Twice I had to take my DD to work (she'd have been about 6 or 7). I took plenty of stuff to keep her quietly occupied, and she knew not to disturb mummy unless it was very important.

I don't know why so many people are jumping to the HOD's defence, to be honest.

how are parents expected to know all the details about your contracts?

Most of the academics on this thread (and many others) patiently explain all this - we're explaining it to you now - but you're getting more & more accusatory. We're just explaining the complex reality of UK universities nowadays. It's not a consumer business - we deal in values, vocation, learning.

Your beef is actually with the Tory government, who wants to stop young people like your son getting to university. Most academics loathe the fee-paying regime.

@bombytomy

May I just take the opportunity to emphasise this to the public: Whereas in my institution 9k a year covers less than half of the full cost of providing the course, which is cross-subsidised by central funds and research grants gained through academics’ research.

In other words, that HoD who was juggling childcare might've been writing a research grant on that saturday, which would've gone into subsidising your son's education?

Just to add to this, this is also why students aren't customers.

If you have to take your child to work (and of course lots of people have to do sudden extra shifts at a weekend and manage childcare) then they shouldn't be being allowed to distract from your work. Especially when you're speaking to an audience.

Well we all took our kids to work during the lockdown. I had Teams meetings with people whose toddlers were climbing on them or whose babies were crying. But then we were forced to work without available childcare. How is a Saturday open day any different? Preschoolers aren't known for sitting still.

Also presumably people who do sudden extra shifts are paid for them so it's not quite the same as giving up family time voluntarily.

[quote bombytomy]@HaveringWavering

To give you some context here. Academics are required to attend conferences to disseminate research results to the scientific community. However, academic mums struggle with this. University or research funding doesn't pay for a carer to come with. It's expected that children are looked after by someone while the mum is presenting, which is of course not the case if you're a single mum or cannot afford to pay for someone to come to Mexico or wherever with you. So it has become usual for academic mums to tow children with them to conferences (and pay for a nanny during the presentation, as well as airfare and so on)[/quote]
Sorry, I don’t follow. You say that single mother academics can’t afford to take a nanny, but then say it has become usual to do so?

To be clear, I can completely understand why an academic might take a child with them to the conference, as in the overall event. But surely you can get someone to sit with the child in another room while you actually present? Eg someone hired locally, or someone connected with the event on the admin or hospitality side? Am I missing that “presenting” takes several hours or something?

@SarahAndQuack I just can’t fathom how any child talking over the presenter could possibly be OK., even if only once or
Twice during the session. I’m only talking about that window of age probably 2 to 6 when they simply don’t understand, sure older than that they would be able to sit quietly. But the other day my 5 year-old would not stop tugging my sleeve or interrupting for the duration of a 5 minute chat with a fellow school mum, and he is a polite and well-behaved child. But he’s 5. I present and run seminars in my professional life. It just wouldn’t be acceptable for a child to talk when I was talking- nobody would be able to concentrate. It would not matter if this was with my usual team as the audience, who all know each other very well. On a basic level it would stop the information being communicated. How are academic papers being presented different to this? I’d have thought they would need proper concentration and attention?

Also presumably people who do sudden extra shifts are paid for them

Um, have you missed almost every academic posting on this thread trying to help the OP understand the possible situation? Saying that we do these Open Days on a Saturday for no extra pay, out of goodwill, no time off in lieu, and for some - in fear of their jobs?

No I haven't @LaChanticleer. That was a PS to my previous post!

@RonCarlos

Also presumably people who do sudden extra shifts are paid for them so it's not quite the same as giving up family time voluntarily.

Nope. My daughter's shifts (usually weekday) can be changed for weekend days at short notice with no extra pay. And when they are, of course there's no day nursery for her DD to go to.

She has no option to take DD into work.

I think this just highlights the lack of critical thinking or the inability to learn without being spoon fed. I can well imagine a teen being perplexed and distracted by the presence of a young child interrupting a speech, but most I know at that age would have asked afterwards if concerned as to whether it would be standard in lectures, or perhaps looked into why or whatever. Not just said well not going there now and moaned to their mum about it.

[quote Igloo71]@nightwakingmoon and I say again, how are parents expected to know all the details about your contracts?[/quote]
But why on Earth would you expect that universities were businesses in the first place? Do you think schools are? Just a Google of the word “university” on Wikipedia would put you right. Or even, a close look at any university website - all of which make it clear that they are research and education communities and charities, not businesses for consumers.

I would be expecting, at the very minimum, any applicant seriously looking at university study, to look at a few university websites, and familiarise him or herself with what university study is and what universities are before even attending an open day. As I said upthread - a bit of critical thinking, and a sense of what university is, might be thought of as essential in an applicant. I’d not expect a younger kid to know what a university is, but at sixteen or seventeen to imagine that university lecturers are like staff in a shop, there to deliver what the consumer wants, is both naive and entitled. It’s also not a good way to start off thinking about what a university degree involves, like pp have said. And the attitude that it’s “unprofessional” for a female lecturer to have a child there has more than a whiff of sexism (and a rather outdated idea about “business”) about it.

Why not learn from this thread and do some research about what universities are there for and what the different aspects of academic jobs and universities are? We aren’t just teachers of undergraduates. We also research, teach postgraduates, examine, do admin, do public impact and engagement work (also largely on unpaid time), do professional mentoring, develop pedagogy, get involved in development and fundraising, management, budget setting and procurement. Science specialists do external consulting, government work, clinical work, all sorts of stuff. Many people teaching are on precarious or freelance/piecework contracts. And lots of these other aspects of the job make undergraduate teaching possible. There is no physics department without the academic staff winning the grants to pay for the equipment and teaching.

Admissions open days is just a tiny tiny aspect of what we do, and it’s largely done in order to help and inform prospective students and so they can meet some of the academics in person. So getting rid of ideas about how it’s some “professional” paid-for service they’re buying is one of the first things a prospective undergraduate should do.

@nightwakingmoon

Brilliant post!

@Igloo71

And I fully support action over that kind of cut. Shocking. But blaming students for open days at a weekend is just ridiculous. That’s a working culture which has evolved presumably?

And nobody is blaming students for the open days being at the weekend. This became the case in order to be more accommodating to applicants - to make it easier and fairer for them, especially those from less privileged schools. But it isn’t some kind of right to expect that staff must therefore be contracted to do this. What we are saying is that a little bit of thinking should go into appreciating that being prissy about a child being present on a Saturday is misplaced.

Students often seem to believe that they somehow “employ” academics. Not the case! - the university is my employer, and I’m contracted to do a lot more things than just teach students, and sometimes their expectations of what my job should be are way off what my job actually is. That doesn’t mean they should therefore be entitled to demand what they want. They sometimes need to adjust their expectations - as everyone has to in life, in the workplace and education and lots of other things.

@PerpetualOptimist

Thank you *@Igloo71* for starting this thread. As you say, lots of informative posts; some expressed in a reasonable way; others less so.

Quite a few academic posters made it clear that some universities have cranked up the number of Saturday open days to an unreasonable and unsustainable level. Several posters have pointed out that there is an imperfect link between the mechanism by which students/taxpayers pay and how universities are actually funded. These factors may well contribute to the disillusionment and disengagement of many academic staff.

It is also clear, and quite shocking, that a sizable minority of academic posters on this thread think they and their institutions are not accountable in any way to the young people who join their student body.

One poster critical of the OP says that it is the SLC that 'pays', conveniently ignoring that the SLC is merely a transmission mechanism for the accumulated debt/tax obligation that is paid by student and taxpayer over subsequent decades.

Another says that, as there is no direct financial link between student and university, the institution's focus is on research and the general advancement of knowledge and any shortcomings in a student's academic experience at the university is essentially not something that students can justifiably complain about.

Fortunately, several other academic posters were willing to counter this by highlighting that some colleagues, drawing professional salaries, simply refuse to assist with any (rather than some) open days, disingenuously citing that they fall outside their contracted hours; their expectation is that other colleagues must compensate for their uncooperative stance.

The problem for prospective students is that it is very difficult to identify the well run universities, departments, courses or modules. Contrary to some posters' rather insular views, 17 year olds don't 'know' how universities are structured, managed or funded; and why should they? Given the future loan/tax liability incurred, many will look at the facts as they present themselves during the period when they must decide whether to go to university and, if so, which one. Open day experiences form part of that. That is actually perfectly rational and reasonable.

The lengthening of the student debt repayment period for the 2023 cohort onwards means students' critical evaluation of individual universities, departments and courses will only intensify.

Rather than turn on prospective students like the OP's son, academics feeling under justifiable pressure need to focus their frustrations on those in their own administration imposing repeated Saturday open days. Interestingly, this thread prompted me to research approaches to in-person and virtual open days across institutions - these vary enormously; so clearly some institutions understand that they can promote themselves without overburdening staff; others do not. This is where the issue lies; not with the OP or her son or the many. many other young people out there trying to make high stakes 'once in a lifetime' decisions.

Finally a sensible post! I'd also add - that if university was clearly attractive to students etc. Why the need for so much 'marketing'?

@saraclara

I've only got halfway through the thread, but so far no-one seems to be recognising that the child was interrupting the woman's talk every five minutes.

If you have to take your child to work (and of course lots of people have to do sudden extra shifts at a weekend and manage childcare) then they shouldn't be being allowed to distract from your work. Especially when you're speaking to an audience.

Twice I had to take my DD to work (she'd have been about 6 or 7). I took plenty of stuff to keep her quietly occupied, and she knew not to disturb mummy unless it was very important.

I don't know why so many people are jumping to the HOD's defence, to be honest.

I pointed this out - but it probably got lost among all the bashing. Also the OP mentioned that there was another adult there seemingly related to the child. What was HE there for then?

Reasons because
a) The OP's child is a man, teenager and therefor immature and doesn't understand the childcare struggle of 'wimmns working!'
b) Frustrated academics intent on emphasizing how 'unis are not businesses', and how students are all charity cases, and should be grateful for whatever they get. Several thousands pounds of debts is just not fees... as the uni isn't a business.. but a donation!

It's b) that really pisses me off btw having been on the receiving end of this attitude (and having to clean up the resultant mess!) for years.

@HewasH2O

Your posts puzzle me OP as you say you're a hard working single mum, but seem to think that families can conjure up childcare out of nowhere.

Perhaps the child's father was there last time, but perhaps they're working today. Perhaps, like you, the HoD is a single parent who managed to drag a friend along to help last time, but has called on too many favours. The HoD undoubtedly has childcare during the week, but nurseries don't open at weekends.

Has your DS picked the course because it's something he really wants to do, or is he using this as a get out clause for accepting an offer elsewhere or backing out of uni altogether. Perhaps he doesn't really want to do that course locally and now has latched onto something trivial as a reason to turn down the offer. I'd be surprised if he actually saw much of the HoD once he was there. Does he realise he is likely to be taught by a collection of lecturers depending on their specialism, from research students upwards? Taking against one academic who was willing to give up their time to help & encourage 17 & 18 year olds to make an important decision about their future shouldn't be the deal breaker.

Yes, this - the first 2 paragraphs. And also that the potential student has envisaged that his degree ambitions will lead to being able to help him with some caring obligations or choices, as well as a qualification, further down the line.

How would he have viewed the HOD if she had not been 'caught out' being a woman with a small child on that day? Differently, I think, but add the child and it devalues all of the person, the whole uni and the previously ideal course?! Really?

OP, you asked whether universities are consciously looking to model friendly and diverse policies, academic image, and lifestyles. In my experience, yes, yes, yes. It can get you coming and going as a member of staff (many have given examples) because there are many things that can help or hinder ideal professional progress. Thankfully as a 17 year old due to do pretty well, as it sounds, a lot of these may not be an issue for him right now but they are issues for the university community.

He might look up Athena Swan. Look up childcare reviews that are done as part of Athena Swan projects and the comments in them. Look up the diversity policies and values for the universities he has in his sights. All of these may build a picture of a place of learning he could back.

Interestingly, this thread prompted me to research approaches to in-person and virtual open days across institutions - these vary enormously; so clearly some institutions understand that they can promote themselves without overburdening staff; others do not.

You’re not going to get a sense of the extent of these open days by looking online. This term’s open days are largely for offer holders and so are not advertised on university websites. At many universities these are a weekly occurrence.

The way I see it is tuition fees are like a gym membership. You pay (well the tax payer pays on your behalf until you can pay them back) for access to the gym and expect working equipment, the toilets cleaned, a safe locker room and good quality class leaders, but you wouldn't expect just because you pay to get to your goal weight without putting any effort in. You also couldn't get stroppy if you demand your class leader to turn up out of hours to let you in to get your gym bag and brings their child along.

@SarahAndQuack I just can’t fathom how any child talking over the presenter could possibly be OK., even if only once or
Twice during the session. I’m only talking about that window of age probably 2 to 6 when they simply don’t understand, sure older than that they would be able to sit quietly. But the other day my 5 year-old would not stop tugging my sleeve or interrupting for the duration of a 5 minute chat with a fellow school mum, and he is a polite and well-behaved child. But he’s 5. I present and run seminars in my professional life. It just wouldn’t be acceptable for a child to talk when I was talking- nobody would be able to concentrate. It would not matter if this was with my usual team as the audience, who all know each other very well. On a basic level it would stop the information being communicated. How are academic papers being presented different to this? I’d have thought they would need proper concentration and attention?

Well, at the conference I'm thinking of, it'd be fine because it's quite relaxed - like any conversation, I guess? The papers are not twenty minutes of intensity - they're more like conversations. People usually bring work-in-progress, and even before covid, it would have been quite normal to be informal.

FWIW, my four year old has lived most of her life with me working around her, and she's known for a long time not to interrupt - she wouldn't be tugging my sleeve. That isn't a good thing! It's the inevitable result of me being a working mum without much childcare. I would take her to more conferences than most people, simply because I know she will behave. But even a child who'd tug sleeves and interrupt would be quite welcome at some conferences I go to, just because we've all ended up adapting with covid.

In my field, academic papers aren't necessarily about 'information', which may make the difference. More often, they will be 'here's an interesting take on the subject ... hey, do you think this works?! Can I persuade you?' That perhaps requires less close concentration. I think it's very subject-dependent: I know in some fields conference proceedings are regularly published in largely unchanged forms (my dad works in such a field). That must be very different.