university entry standards tariff points - how so high when most people take 3 A levels?

[AvillageinProvence]

Have just been looking at the overall actual entry standards at universities, measured by tariff points, and can't work out how they're so high at some universities! Not talking about offers here, but the points actually achieved by recent entrants.

So, as an example - History - 'Complete university guide' guide says the actual average tariff points achieved are Durham 203, LSE 181, UCL 180, Bristol 177, Exeter 172, York 171. (I've left out Scotland univs as Scottish highers may come into it more, and o/b as I expect they may raise different issues)
Link here:
Top UK University League Tables and Rankings 2020

So, given that A = 56 points, and A = 48, and the norm is now to do 3 arts/humanities A levels, how are they so high? Have people a) done 4 A levels, particularly at Durham as otherwise I don't see how you get to an average* of 203 points? b) done AS levels (I thought these had basically disappeared in arts/humanities) c) done EPQ (thought this was a private/grammar school thing mainly, but could be wrong and anyway that is 28 points at most) d) done lots of music exams? (DofE doesn't give you tariff points).

I don't understand!

OP the current data used will be before all A levels were fully reformed - so take your average A level achieved of A star, A, A. Add grade 8 oboe, most will also have an AS in a fourth subject and possibly a second instrument or drama exam or A level in Crit Thinking and it's easy to see how an average of 206 is achieved.

I maybe wrong but I think there is possibly some confusion between music diplomas in performance (I.e. beyond Grade 8) and diplomas in music (studying) that are Level 3 qualifications. Some Rock School diplomas are offered by colleges instead of A level or BTEC in music so are a totally different from diplomas gained purely on music performance ability through, for example, ABRSM/Trinity etc. This is why they have the seemingly higher points tariff for UCAS purposes.

Here are some other sources of information which shed some light on it :
The Student Room thread on how done students get 540 UCAS points - old system. And Another on unis ranked by entry standards. Many commenting that international qualifications can be allocated very high UCAS scores and this skews the average. Plus the unis with highest average UCAS scores tend to be those with lots of international students.
International students - percentage of students at each university.

Here's [[https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings?o=Entry+Standards universities ranked by entry standards 2019]] and the Methodology.

Freedobby that's exactly it. I think the confusion is because both are called a "diploma" but are very different qualifications. I must confess I was only thinking of the ABRSM/ Trinity type diploma as I live in a predominantly Classical music world.

It's like when you ask a kid what sort of BTEC they're doing and they have no clue. Is it equivalent to one, two or three A levels? Blank looks. It doesn't help that they're all called BTECs but all are very different qualifications.

I am glad some people agree with me that UCAS guidance seems clear as mud on the music grades. Anyway it is not relevant to me now as child 5 (last child) is at university unless I suppose law firms ask for his UCAS points and I hope they define that at his point of entry of data as he would want to be 100% within the rules of what he claims. I have 4 grade 8s in different things and my older son 3 (drum kit, singing, trumpet) + one (piano) where he did not get 8 but has 7 so even that is going to be a fair bit of UCAS points simply because he did so many different musical things (he had a music scholarship to his school as did his twin brothers).

However the bottom line is that for most good universities only your A levels (and AS if no A level in that subject) are going to be what count.

I agree, there are so many different qualifications it can get confusing but you would hope the students themselves understand what they are studying.

@ZandathePanda
from the Ib stats website - 94 schools in the UK offer the IB diploma programme. and 4589 candidates from the UK sat the diploma examinations in May 2019.www.ibo.org/contentassets/bc850970f4e54b87828f83c7976a4db6/dp-statistical-bulletin-may-2019-en.pdf

Freedobby Sadly not, in my experience. It's more common than not for kids not to know the full name of the BTEC they're doing, they just know it's a BTEC. Yes, I say, but what sort? Blank looks all round. Most worryingly, it's not unusual for kids to claim they are doing X type of BTEC on their UCAS form only for it to actually be Y when the results come in.

Shanghai thanks for that information. That’s a fair number of schools. I would imagine the majority of these are private?

Wouldn’t it be nice if the complete university guide would give A Levels grades people have got in on though? I never managed to find that info out - it will change year to year I know but would give you a guide/hope/reality check. All the points do is confuse and make you lose hope!

That's interesting as Durham seem to have a lot of international students. I also notice that the Scottish universities score highly on entry grades and most of their students probably take Scottish Highers rather than A levels so perhaps UCAS points are also generous for these compared with A levels. Given the students satisfactions scores etc are probably rubbish too (it's not as if the students have any comparison) it demonstrates that the league tables aren't worth much really.

Wouldn’t it be nice if the complete university guide would give A Levels grades people have got in on though? I never managed to find that info out - it will change year to year I know but would give you a guide/hope/reality check.

Not everyone has A levels though and even if they did it only tells you which universities are more popular which is dependent on the league tables anyway. It is self-fulfulling.

@ZandathePanda - the IB diploma is an expensive programme to run so you may correct that many of the schools offering it are private.
We are not in the UK and my ds attended an international school.

The government is currently proposing to restrict funding for state schools so that they can only offer A-levels and T-levels. (As FE providers agree almost universally that T-levels can't actually be delivered, this will cause chaos, which is generally the government's preferred state of affairs.) If this happens it will mean that state schools can't offer the IB, so it will become purely a private school qualification. In this event I assume Ofqual would no longer regulate the qualification, so it would not have any formal accreditation in the UK.

Hugo must have missed those by skim reading thanks. In my defence I was in a steamy car waiting for an after school club to finish, in the dark, in the pouring rain. I thought that was parent dedication but FOI requests are another level!

woodchuck, ust ancedotally my twins and their friends have made or exceeded their offers (not including music exams) (so mine were offered AAB and AA and each twin got exactly what was required).

i suppose the question is why do people want to know? I assume that is because they might have a teenager considering say Durham, Bristol, Warwick and wondering if they have a chance given predicted grades that might be a bit under what the unviersity websites gives as a typical offer?

It is interesting looking solely at the Scottish Universities in those tables. @woodchuck99 it is not that UCAS points are more generous for Scottish Highers and Advanced Highers. Rather, everything else being equal, it shows the effect of funded tuition fees. It has become more difficult for Scottish students to gain places at Scottish Universities due to the quotas imposed via the ‘free’ tuition fees. Essentially the universities can only afford to take x number of Scottish students as they only receive £1820 funding per place. The effect of this is particularly seen at the more prestigious universities where the given entry requirements become fairly meaningless. So for the popular Arts subjects my DD was interested in we knew from a UCAS event and Open Days she had to have achieved AAAAA (5 x 33 = 165 UCAS pts) at Higher at first sitting in order to gain Unconditional Offers at the 2 universities she was interested in.

Hello All - May I join in? I've been lurking for ages.

DD is hoping for Oxford but I won't mention the course for now if that's okay, as it's fairly niche and may identify her? She's also applied to Imperial, UCL, Southampton and Bristol. Her UCAS form was submitted yesterday and she's had the acknowledgment email :-) Now the waiting game begins....

Good luck to your dd seedybird.

Good luck seedybird. My twins (who dd not try for Oxbridge) are happy at Bristol and chose it over Durham although that would have been good too (and I am from the NE and my father and uncle went to Durham, although we live in London now so Bristol is a bit easier for travel).

I do think from being through it myself and since then with 5 chidlren it is the most stressful thing, more so than choosing a career, university exams, job interviews - it is that key transition and A levels which remains such a big thing for teenagers.

Thanks Xenia and & *ShanghaiDiva - oops sorry, I posted on the wrong thread - sorry to derail!

"I do think from being through it myself and since then with 5 chidlren it is the most stressful thing, more so than choosing a career, university exams, job interviews - it is that key transition and A levels which remains such a big thing for teenagers."

May be you should post on threads where women with 3 under fives ask posters opinions as to whether to have more children

Gin, nothing nicer for me than having 5 children so I would certainly not people off it, just because teenagers have a hard time getting through the A level and university stage.

@ZandathePanda
Wouldn’t it be nice if the complete university guide would give A Levels grades people have got in on though? I never managed to find that info out

I've seen that from various sources - The Student Room forums are good for this. Eg for various Oxford and Cambridge courses you'll find links to college or department publications and FOI requests where they detail actual grades obtained and extrance test scores for all interviewees. They also have some nice threads on certain subjects where lots of people list what grades they were predicted and obtained - I saw a very good thread like that for veterinary science, for instance, busting the myth that you'd only get accepted if you had straight top grades.

@SirTobyBelch - I am interested in what you say about the govt potentially not funding IB - not least because I have a DD who is considering it!
Also, a couple of schools near where we live have recently decided to go IB only for 6th form (and have withdrawn A levels from their offering) so I guess they’d need to backtrack pretty quickly.
Wondered if you had a link to further info?