university entry standards tariff points - how so high when most people take 3 A levels?

[AvillageinProvence]

Have just been looking at the overall actual entry standards at universities, measured by tariff points, and can't work out how they're so high at some universities! Not talking about offers here, but the points actually achieved by recent entrants.

So, as an example - History - 'Complete university guide' guide says the actual average tariff points achieved are Durham 203, LSE 181, UCL 180, Bristol 177, Exeter 172, York 171. (I've left out Scotland univs as Scottish highers may come into it more, and o/b as I expect they may raise different issues)
Link here:
Top UK University League Tables and Rankings 2020

So, given that A = 56 points, and A = 48, and the norm is now to do 3 arts/humanities A levels, how are they so high? Have people a) done 4 A levels, particularly at Durham as otherwise I don't see how you get to an average* of 203 points? b) done AS levels (I thought these had basically disappeared in arts/humanities) c) done EPQ (thought this was a private/grammar school thing mainly, but could be wrong and anyway that is 28 points at most) d) done lots of music exams? (DofE doesn't give you tariff points).

I don't understand!

As has been pointed out several times already on this thread, A levels have changed since you were at school Velveteenfruitbowl.

They are linear and harder - no sitting half an A level in year 12, and the other half in year 13. Only the very bright do 4 subjects now, and usually it is further maths. Taking 5 A level subjects now is very rare.

Also, universities want all A levels taken at the same time.

We don't know how old velveteenfruitbowl is, though do we?

When I did my A levels (in 1979) they were all linear and there was no coursework.

I did 4 including General Studies, which was starting to become very popular then. They each had 2 x 3 hour papers.

A good friend did his A levels a year earlier. He did 5 (maths, chemistry, biology, physics and general studies) plus two S levels (all taken in the same year). Mind you, he was/is very bright and subsequently went to Cambridge.

True fifth time. I did my A levels in 1977. I had more than 2 x 3 hour papers for mine.

DS1 had to put a predicted G8 grade down on his UCAS form, but definitely only highest grade for each instrument. As I understand it results are sent to UCAS like A levels in that instance. I suppose therefore it will be added to the final points tally.

Didn't matter to DS1, but my friend's daughter had a points offer for her uni and her 2 G8s counted.

I wonder why music diplomas don't count?

Oh yes and 3 x 3 hour papers with no coursework and all linear for my A levels in 1990. I took 4 (essay subjects) but, yes, one was General Studies.

A couple more things that can add tot he UCAS points but not the offer.

IT qualifications, I believe the advanced ECDL attracts some points as does ASDAN.

I've worked in schools where all year 11 students took ECDL so VI forms may be taking a similar approach.

Also A levels in languages,if you don't speak English at home you might take an A Level (or AS) in your first language. Also If you are not in the country permanently or your parents are immigrants you may take the exams / qualifications of your home or your parents home country. Eg I worked with a Libyan man, his children periodically went to the embassy to sit examination so if/when they returned they could attend school / college / uni in Lybia.

Someone coming from the US may have some AP courses which attract UCAS points but then take A Levels.

I have o idea how many UCAS points I have, I 'did' A Levels, well I occasionally went in and hated the place but managed a couple of passes. Everyone did 4, well 3 + general studies. It was an TC VI form so we also had RE lessons, the time spent teaching general studies (very few places actually had any lessons) and RE we could have done something useful. This was mid 1980s.

I then did a BTEC through work.

A few years ago I did a AS in sociology and passed (even though I forgot to attend one exam)

One final thing, a course with only a few students could have its stats skewed by one exceptional student. A few years ago a girl at a local school took and passed 7 A Levels in one sitting.

I tried to search for her and found this, OK it's 2014 but 11 A Levels at A and A* grades.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/11034242/Teenager-achieves-11-A-levels-at-grades-A-and-A-despite-bad-time-management.html

UCAS only award points for Level 3 qualifications ie A levels and equivalents eg IB, Pre-Us etc. UCAS have deemed music grades 6 -8 as Level 3 and therefore attract UCAS points. But Diplomas are deemed Level 4 so don't attract points. Make of that what you will ... Mathematically it makes no sense to take every grade as you only get points for your highest, my DS only did G8 and has the same points as someone who did every grade. But I understand a lot of teachers like to use grades as a teaching scheme.

This is all very interesting. I agree it's odd that the music diploma gets no points - and also strange that there's no distinction made between D1 and D2 in the pre-U.

I think the overall figure may tell you something once you know about the vagaries - but not everyone does!

Question for Scottish mners - if students from Scotland go to university in England do they tend to choose more northern universities because of travel costs/ease (leaving aside o/b)?

Ah - we crossed Boys, about the diploma! Yes, so if a student is applying for a second undergraduate degree, say in Medicine, you wouldn't include any points for the fact that they already had a geography degree. So if diploma is level 4, the same reasoning would apply.

I suppose that the art degree entrants may also have higher totals generally because you add in the foundation diploma - which is level 3.

Yes, exactly, Avillage, degrees don't attract UCAS points.

One thing I do find odd is the disparity in points awarded for practical and theory grades. G8 Theory is bloody hard but only gets a fraction the points of G8 Practical, which obvs is also hard to achieve. But harder than G8 Theory?

And yes, it's annoying that UCAS really seem to struggle to differentiate with Pre-Us.

Dd has just phoned (!) rushing for her Monday 9am lecture. There was a practise fire alarm at 8.20am. As you can imagine, it did not go down well with the few that have got lectures (probably showering at that time) and the hundreds who haven’t . She said it was extremely loud which is good 😁

Ooo wrong thread. No way can I weave that story into how many points or grades the evacuees had !

I'm in Glagow so lots of students stay at home as we have 3 universities within the city(and West of Scotland in Paisley) plus the Conservatoire, then there will be a number who commute to Stirling, Edinburgh.
The ones I have known head south has been because it's a courses they can't find in Scotland or for one of the top universities-Oxbridge etc. Dd1 has 2 friends in London and one of those did not get an offer from Cambridge. She is the only Scot in her department. The other was offered a full scholarship for music. Dd2 has looked at the fees and outright rejected Oxbridge (despite being pushed by school) or any English university and the majority of pupils I have spoken to feel the same, the only one I can think from my school who has gone to an English university in the last 5 years was for drama as they were not offered a place in Glasgow and I know they were paying the fees upfront.

Zanda was it the block or all the halls?

Gin may have been whole halls?? No doubt I will get the whole story later! The way she was talking it was loud enough to wake the other blocks anyway...

Thanks Fluffy that's interesting, it suggests Scottish highers aren't the reason for the Durham English and History average figures being around 20 points ahead of the next England (non o/b) universities (rough figure only, haven't gone back to check)! Maybe there is a relatively high proportion of ibac students, or of the relatively few 4 A level humanities students.

Zanda, I agree your dd probably wasn't in the mood to discuss tariff points! Still, good that they are taking fire precautions seriously - and I suppose the advantage of 8.20 is that you get most students involved.

Boys in a way I suppose it doesn't really matter that UCAS doesn't differentiate the pre U distinction grades, unless of course a student is applying to a tariff based offer university. I agree with you about music theory - very difficult! But someone mentioned the points are based on the hours of work required - maybe the hours of practice needed for the performance are what swings it!

I am still not happy about whether UCAS all you to put all grades 6 7 and 8 on or just your highest one. This UCSA 2019/20 table suggests all 3 go on if you have grades 6 - 8 - www.ucas.com/file/259341/download?token=GXu_Pq-H on page 99. I have not seen anything that says music is treated like an AS where you later do the A level (A2) where you have always just put the A level not the AS unless you stopped the subject at AS in which case the AS goes on.

However I don't have a UCAS application form in front of me saying only enter the highest grade so cannot check that. I still think you can put all of 6 7 and 8 on until I see some UCAS document saying otherwise.

(This school though says lower grades subsumed into higher ones for music - www.bathcollege.ac.uk/help-advice/qualifications-explained/ucas-points-explained but that is not UCAS. I would refer to see UCAS saying so)

This UCAS form says enter highest (for all exams as far as I can see). )

www.ucas.com/file/131431/download?token=LLf-qD0M

Another Scottish parent here. My DD was also not interested in applying for any universities outside of Scotland. She is in her first year of joint English Lit and History at St Andrews which was her first choice. Friends applying to English Universities did so for highly rated courses that are in shorter supply eg Drama, Vet Medicine, Dentistry and of course Oxford/Cambridge. Essentially, I think the tuition fee situation means that there has to be a really good reason to apply outside of Scotland.

Another Scottish mum here. Agree with others there needs to be a really good reason for a Scottish applicant to decide to choose to attend an English uni. My Dd has applied to O and imperial ( O is a very long shot) the rest are Scottish unis but even with top grades quotas by Scottish government mean offers aren’t guaranteed. She has only chosen Imperial as graduate prospects are good. But I do know of quite a few who go down south from our school which is an Indy.

Shanghai - it's in the small print, look at the UCAS site. For example Durham want a minimum 666 HL for Economics, Bath want 766. And they will withdraw a place if you don't make the HL requirements, it happened to a couple of DS1's friends and they resat. They are also very specific about what subjects you have to have sat at HL and on the Imperial course I just checked for Biomedical Eng states what grade each HL subject needs to be.
I think the Durham Economics offers shows why DS1's school pushes IB as having more favourable offers. The A level is AAA against 666 for IB. Now bearing in mind that before the introduction of the A a 7 was seen as an A equivalent Durham is offering 3 x low A/High B A level grade equivalents in recognition of an IB candidate having studies other subjects as well during 6th form. The IB offer is more attainable if someone is prepared to put in the two years of hard work to get there.

It certainly applies to medicine, I checked the first few unis on the UCAS website. Usual HL subject requirements Chem = science/maths and then:
Birmingham 666 HL
Bristol 66 HL
Cambridge 776 HL
Dundee 666 HL

Like Economics medicine definitely has specific HL requirements. DS was at a big IB school and this exactly in line with the advice I was given. Less popular courses may not have such specific requirements but this was a very academic school.

cake - I don't think all universities are so prescriptive regarding HL subjects. Ds's only requirement was for HL maths and points total of 38. His offers did not specify particular subjects/grades for his other HLs - but this may be subject dependent.
I agree that 666 at HL is a more favourable offer than A*AA - is there also a total points requirement? As you say, the IB offer is more attainable if you are prepared work very hard for two years.