university entry standards tariff points - how so high when most people take 3 A levels?

[AvillageinProvence]

Have just been looking at the overall actual entry standards at universities, measured by tariff points, and can't work out how they're so high at some universities! Not talking about offers here, but the points actually achieved by recent entrants.

So, as an example - History - 'Complete university guide' guide says the actual average tariff points achieved are Durham 203, LSE 181, UCL 180, Bristol 177, Exeter 172, York 171. (I've left out Scotland univs as Scottish highers may come into it more, and o/b as I expect they may raise different issues)
Link here:
Top UK University League Tables and Rankings 2020

So, given that A = 56 points, and A = 48, and the norm is now to do 3 arts/humanities A levels, how are they so high? Have people a) done 4 A levels, particularly at Durham as otherwise I don't see how you get to an average* of 203 points? b) done AS levels (I thought these had basically disappeared in arts/humanities) c) done EPQ (thought this was a private/grammar school thing mainly, but could be wrong and anyway that is 28 points at most) d) done lots of music exams? (DofE doesn't give you tariff points).

I don't understand!

Cake
just seen your further examples and it looks subject dependent. Ds applied for finance and accounting and HL maths was the only specified subject from all five of his offers.

Different courses Shanghai. Medicine, Eng, Economics etc are very specific. It is actually possible to sit individual IB subjects for UK university entrance. DS1's school only offered Greek at IB not A level so one boy sat 2 A levels and one HL in Greek!

I have said this previously but thought I would reiterate it with some facts.
The reason that the points are so high (for example History at Durham), I really suspect, is not due to academic A Level grades but all the add-ons correlated with private schools/wealthy families. Btw I am not dismissing as invalid a rigorous music education here just stating some facts to come to a hypothesis.

For example, from a government website ‘music is increasingly becoming the preserve of the wealthy, whose children go to schools where GCSE music is still encouraged and who can afford to pay for music tuition. Half of children at independent schools have sustained access to music tuition, compared to just 15% in state schools.’

If you then look at the graph (attached) it will show the most % private school entrants at the top.

So is the real answer to the OPs original question: the tariff points are so high because, on average the students’ parents are wealthier.

I will now go and hide....

Mine will only do 2 A levels, not heard of any using points these days. I thought they went on A level results.

Drabarni yes the universities go on A Level results which is annoying when you are trying to work out the odds of getting into a place and the comparison sites use points. Very frustrating.

Zanda

Mine will be very lucky to pass GCSE let alone A level, so only offered two, which will probably be Music and Music Technology, the first being compulsory.
I'm surprised the government are saying this, I don't doubt you btw. However, they have a scheme for access to musical education at numerous music schools.
It isn't the preserve of the rich, sink estate kids get to go too.
I know that rich people can afford lessons, but it doesn't mean that the poor can't.
Our LA is fabulous and gives heavily discounted lessons, free ensembles and free instrument loan.

Xenia of course you can list every grade you've ever done on your UCAS application, it's just that you only accumulate points for the highest grade in each instrument, just as you only get points for the A level if you have an AS in the same subject.

Zanda please could you post a link to the website that you took the screenshot from. My eyes aren't good enough to read it.

The UCAS points get bumped up with music grades (e.g. two grade 8 distinctions is more than an A* at A level) and EPQ. They don't help students get in necessarily but the universities ask for copies of certificates once you get in so that they increase their average entry scores. Many science students at Durham, Oxbridge etc will have done further maths A level so that will increase the average entry score too.

I wonder why music diplomas don't count?

I think it depends on the board for some reason.

Wood all music diplomas are counted as at least Level 4 and therefore ineligible for UCAS points.

Whilst I agree that some less well off families are able to access music tuition this is by no means universal. And apart from the financial cost of playing at a high level, the amount of time you have to devote to support as a music parent puts people off as well. I am counting down the days until my DS can drive himself to the never ending lessons/rehearsals/concerts.

Wood all music diplomas are counted as at least Level 4 and therefore ineligible for UCAS points.

The list DD got from her university suggested that some diplomas did count (I can't remember which) although hers didn't. I didn't read it personally but this is what she told me as she was quite perplexed!

Wood I've just checked the UCAS Tarriff Table and it's still only G6, 7 and 8 in both Theory and Practical music that attract tariff points. There are, however, about a gazillion diplomas in a very wide variety of other subjects that do attract tariff points so I'm not surprised your DD was bewildered by the list (it's about 200 pages long!).

Not sure what 'government website' Zanda is referring to but a quick google suggests that her quotation is taken from a speech by Lord Black during a debate in music education in the House of Lords on 18 October last year. If anyone is interested, they can read the speech, indeed the whole debate, in Hansard. The Government's position was set out towards the end by Lord Agnew.

I've also found the table by googling. It's taken from a publication by the Sutton Trust called 'Access to Advantage' published in December 2018.

Sorry, I don't know how to do links.

Wood I've just checked the UCAS Tarriff Table and it's still only G6, 7 and 8 in both Theory and Practical music that attract tariff points.

The list came from the university who wanted copies of certificates rather than the UCAS table. They were definitely asking for music diplomas from some exam boards. I don't know if they were correct obviously or how many ucas points they thought they were worth but I doubt DD made a mistake.

The university may have been interested in the diploma even if did not attract any UCAS points, of course.

The university may have been interested in the diploma even if did not attract any UCAS points, of course.

No they were clear in their e mail to her that they wanted them for their entry scores for the league tables. This is obviously one of the ways that some universities get high scores.

I've gone back to the list of qualifications and it looks as if some Rockschool and UAL diplomas count as level 3, so they do attract UCAS points.

For example there is a UAL extended diploma in music performance and production that is worth between 72 and 168 UCAS points.

And there's a Rockschool level 3 extended diploma for music practitioners worth between 48 and 168 UCAS points.

Perhaps where applicants say they have done music diplomas, the universities just want to check in case it is a a UAL or Rockschool one?

The reason that the points are so high (for example History at Durham), I really suspect, is not due to academic A Level grades but all the add-ons correlated with private schools/wealthy families. Btw I am not dismissing as invalid a rigorous music education here just stating some facts to come to a hypothesis.

I am not sure! I think we've established it's max 40 points per instrument (grade 8 distinction = 30, plus theory distinction = 10). You don't count grades 6 and 7 if you've done 8 - I think!!! (if that's wrong, all the rest of my calcs go out of the window.....) Very few students will be that good - that would not be average I think. So English at Durham = average 206 points. Maybe no student gets exactly 206 but let's assume the average one does. If 40 come from music, that still leaves 166 to get from the A levels, which would suggest that the average student doing English at Durham got 3 A stars (= 168). That is not my impression - although it is very very competitive to get in - as the standard offer is .one A star and two As. Even if I am wrong and that is the average A level attainment, I don't think most would also have 40 from music.

So my hunch is the ibac is at play here. (I think we ruled out Scottish highers as playing a major part earlier on!)

Fifth thank you. Couldn’t re-find the music quote but yes that looks like it was from the speech you mentioned. And the table (waves to Gin) is from the Sutton Trust report here:

www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/AccesstoAdvantage-2018.pdf

The above is worth a read.

Drabarni glad your children have good access to music it’s heartening to hear. Music is so important. Unfortunately there isn’t the time nor money in many schools/ children’s lives in my experience.

Thank you Zanda
Waves back

Avillage interesting. How many/what type of schools do the ibac? None of the state schools nor independents do it from round my way.

Fifth my bad - you are correct. I (stupidly, obvs) just looked at the music qualifications section. Since we were talking about music qualifications? Honestly, that UCAS document is about as clear as mud ... No wonder everyone is confused!

Aw, I came on here to listen to the uni stuff, but thanks so much for the music in education links.

The most depressing thing I heard recently was a conversation with SMT at my dd school. They do so much outreach work it's commendable but alas once again poorer state school children are let down. There is nobody at the schools to coordinate such a visit, it's nobody's job, the hubs are facing further cuts and it's scary that future generations are going to grow up without music. It's not even like it's a cultural thing anymore.
Arghhhh! My dd has been very lucky indeed with supportive parents, family culture, good LA provision at the time, parents with a low income sahp, time.

I am not sure! I think we've established it's max 40 points per instrument (grade 8 distinction = 30, plus theory distinction = 10).

Yes, but I think that people who play one instrument up to grade 8 will usually play another. Then they might have an EPQ or a fourth AS etc. It all adds up.