university entry standards tariff points - how so high when most people take 3 A levels?

[AvillageinProvence]

Have just been looking at the overall actual entry standards at universities, measured by tariff points, and can't work out how they're so high at some universities! Not talking about offers here, but the points actually achieved by recent entrants.

So, as an example - History - 'Complete university guide' guide says the actual average tariff points achieved are Durham 203, LSE 181, UCL 180, Bristol 177, Exeter 172, York 171. (I've left out Scotland univs as Scottish highers may come into it more, and o/b as I expect they may raise different issues)
Link here:
Top UK University League Tables and Rankings 2020

So, given that A = 56 points, and A = 48, and the norm is now to do 3 arts/humanities A levels, how are they so high? Have people a) done 4 A levels, particularly at Durham as otherwise I don't see how you get to an average* of 203 points? b) done AS levels (I thought these had basically disappeared in arts/humanities) c) done EPQ (thought this was a private/grammar school thing mainly, but could be wrong and anyway that is 28 points at most) d) done lots of music exams? (DofE doesn't give you tariff points).

I don't understand!

I can't imagine that any university gives weighting to musical achievements for a non-music course.
Ds had a very high UCAS points score, but the IB score (overall total and a specific score for HL maths) were the only grades that universities were interested in.

Ginfordinner, but this happens with other things. We knew gifted sports people who gained lower offers. It is about potential and perhaps Universities feel that someone who is dedicating perhaps 20 hours a week or more to sport or music and still gets decent grades will do as well with someone with slightly higher grades.

Ditto DC could have been considered "educationally advantaged" as a result of having gone to a very academic private school. The working assumption seemed to be that to achieve a place on a competitive course their results needed to be slightly better than others who did not have the same advantage. Even now taking four A levels is pretty normal for scientists and many of the rest. Both DC took five, so racked up an astonishing number of points, but this would not have helped them over other applicants with equal potential offering 3 A levels. (Though has helped them since, in that any education or knowledge is rarely wasted).

@Ginfordinner yes, people with lots of music exams will generally have UCAS points than others, but I don't think most institutions pay much attention to the number of points, do they?

My children's offers were based on their A level grades, not their UCAS points and they were made the standard offer for the course they applied to at each institution. The one who studied music had two unconditional offers, but that was not unusual for those universities (Birmingham and Nottingham).

I have also always been bafled by this and having read the thread have come to the conclusion that UCAS points are nonsense.

The points for a Higher Level IB subject awarded a 7 are 56, the same as for an A at A level. But before As were introduced a grade 7 was equivalent to the old grade A. introducing the A* grade seriously reduced the number of pupils obtaining the top grade at A level but no similar adjustment was made to the numbers obtaining 7s at IB because it's an international qualification. So it makes no sense at all for them to still receive the same number of UCAS points.

DS1's school reintroduced A levels after being IB only for a number of years and one of their biggest selling points for IB was that although it's hard work it is much easier to get the top grades at IB than it is at A level. In DS's year group over 60% of HL subjects were graded at 7. It has also become much more common for unis to offer on an applicants HL grades, e.g. 776, rather than on an overall point score as used to be the case.

It would be far more useful if rather than give a rather confusing entry points tariff, they just gave the grades of the average A level student as that it what most in England will have sat and is easily understood and convertible for others.

I can assure gin that for any good univserity like my twins' Bristol, Oxbridge and others the fact our sons have identical A levels/AS levels is all that matters. The fact mine has some music exams too is not used in university entrance. It wuold however help if someone got say DD grades in A level and needed a basic level of UCAS points for one of the worst universities in the UK for example.

Fifth, I do think you put down all graeds 6 7 and 8 although I dont' have a UCAS application in front of me to test it. I definitely remember that being so and was one reason I didn't want the twins to miss out grade 7. I might be wrong however.

UCAS give more credit for the higher grades and the higher marks but not for the fact you did 2 instruments not one - surely that is reasonable? Eg my older son passed grade 8 singing as a boy treble and his brothers grade 7 so they were not doing that grade when doing say grade 8 on their main instrument(s) at an older age - they were spaced out a bit. In fact I remember the youngest two applying to UCAS and you had to list the school you were at for your grades 6/7/8 and they did some at their prep school - I just remember that being a bit complicated as it was a different school from their secondary - i cannot remember how they put it in (and we know it is irrelevant - in fact at Bristol presumably if you dont' have music exams and go to a dire school that is the thing that gets you the lower offers not the other way round!

This is making me laugh - they call the dire school an "aspiring school" - talk about mincing your words - www.bristol.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/entry-requirements-qualifications/contextual-offers/

Most STEM courses set their entry offer by grades
they could not give stuff about extra UCAS points

You might be right, Xenia and it would be interesting to know the answer.

Personally, I think a grade 8 in a particular instrument builds on the Grade 7 and 6 in the same way that an A level builds on an AS so it would make sense to me to give credit only for the highest grade. Of course to some extent, proficiency in any instrument helps with any other instrument, but it doesn't help with technical mastery. You need to put a lot more time and effort into getting distinctions at grade 6 cello, grade 7 trumpet and grade 8 piano than you do into getting them for grades 6, 7 and 8 piano.

I don't think my children had to say what school they were at when they took their music exams, but perhaps that's because they didn't take them through school. I assume UCAS does any necessary checking with the ABRSM (or other board) rather than with the school/ exam centre.

It would be far more useful if rather than give a rather confusing entry points tariff, they just gave the grades of the average A level student as that it what most in England will have sat and is easily understood and convertible for others.

Yes, I think that would be more readily understandable to English readers, - but then what do you do about the Scottish universities where many students have taken highers? This may be why they do the table this way, in order to have a truly national table rather than an English one (English/Welsh would need Welsh bac as well of course). But in any case, including music grades does seem strange.

ListeningQuietly: most universities ask for A level grades or equivalent for entry. Few use UCAS points, STEM or Humanities or even Arts! The question being discussed was the historic UCAS points of those accepted onto the courses. It’s nothing to do with entry requirements.

DS submitted his UCAS form last month. I was there when he filled in his qualifications.

He plays one instrument and he only added the highest grade he has taken (Grade 8).

He also added Grade 5 Theory because Music Theory was on the qualifications list as an option and the drop-down menu included all grade levels. (I realise this doesn't provide points).

The form didn't ask where he had taken the exams but it did ask the month and year.

Bubbles
Indeed
its a stupid stat to publish as it was not used for the entry requirements
and is just done to perpetuate snobbishness at certain institutions
by putting off those who think those numbers matter

Ironoaks is likely to be right then. I definitely remember having to decide where they should put music exams taken at not their current school but that was 3 years ago (and actually I think think you are right -the twins put down grade 5 theory now you mention it). I might be remembering it wrongly too - scanning my diaries earlier this year showed me how bad my memory could be about some things! I amy have even invented in my head that one reason we wanted the children to do each of grades 6 7 and 8 was for extra UCAS points.

I suppose when my daughter was having to add them up for a law job's on line form it was slightly important to know the full number, I wuold quite like someone to find a UCAS statement about this because if law firms still do ask for UCAS points should she be adding her separate points for trades 6 7 and 8 (or indeed grade 5 theory) or just the highest grade in each instrument.
I had a vague memory UCAS points changed and found this:

"A new UCAS tariff was introduced in 2017. For example, under the old system an 'A' was worth 120 points, so three As were 360 UCAS points; under the new system an 'A' is worth 48 points, so three As are 144 points. A full breakdown of the new tariffs can be found here. Some firms have provided us with numbers under the new system and some have used the old system. Tariff requirements using the old system are marked with an *. "
www.chambersstudent.co.uk/law-firms/getting-a-training-contract/application-and-selection-criteria
My twins went to university 2017 so possibly under the new or the old system.

So looking at that lawyers link abouve Allen & Overy, a good London firm who wil be taking applications until about Christmsd 2019 for 2022 jobs require a minimum " 2:1 AAB / 136 UCAS"

Anyone remember that A levels used to have the following UCCA/PCAS tariffs: A = 10, B = 8, down to E = 2? This was early nineties and pre-A*.

(..above... will....... Christmas..... seems to be my day for typos....)

When asking about whether AS levels counted, and told they didn’t from 5 RG universities, it would not seem that their points aren’t relevant. The EPQ did help by dropping the offer by a grade so it is a real shame that some schools don’t other it. Neither would some places count a 4th A Level - it was done on the top 3 grades.
Dd did an silver Arts Award that she could have continued to gold to get more points but concentrated on her A Level grades instead. All the grade 8 musicians we knew did music A Level so that would be conflicting.

AAA* ‘only’ gives you 168 points! Doubt many places would turn their noses up at that.

A star A star A star that is - forgot that it bolds!

The average points per entrant provides some indication of how competitive a course is. Oxford normally asks for 3xA. So do many other Universities/courses. Oxford entrants usually exceed the minimum offer, often by some margin. Other places may regularly take dropped grades.

Never obviously that would be really useful if that corresponded to A Level grades achieved. If Oxford candidates are exceeding the target I would have thought it is more indicative of a higher % of private school candidates/ rich parents who have had the opportunities for music lessons, Arts Awards etc. Not trying to be controversial but just pointing out that it might not be aligned to relevant academic subject success.

It would be so much more useful for everyone if it the average likelihood of getting in on different grade combinations rather than points was published. But that might be too revealing?

I remember reading Prince Charles got into Cambridge with a BC so obviously being a Prince of the Kingdom must be worth a few points.

My dd1 has been told by Wolverhampton that she needs her level3 childcare qualification at, a grade B or above and her maths and english c and above, shes currently deciding whether to do science along side her course. She already has the maths and english and an IT qualification aswell as 2 years early years experience within a nursery. So she has to do 3 year degree in childcare and then a pgc. Its always best to speak to uni at open days etc to find out what they require. Its far less about her points and more about grades and attitude, plus a good report/ reference from tutors goes a long way.
She was getting mixed messages from careers advisors so she went to the open day at the college where various different universities had advisors available, she far more relaxed now she knows exactly what she needs.

Avillage - Scottish unis could put an average grade for the scottish A level equivalent. The points tariff is useless and at least putting the average grades for the local/most popular qualification would give applicants some idea.

Putting the Scottish equivalent of A level, the Advanced higher, would not really work as entry for Scottish students is usually based on their Highers which are equivalent to the AS level. AHs are seen as a nice extra (except perhaps for medicine etc) which might might be needed if Higher results are not quite good enough, or to skip straight to 2nd year or for entry to an English university. So as a result many of the Scottish students like my dd1 will be applying knowing they have already achieved/exceed the standard entry requirements.
Not all schools will offer AHs and certainty not for every subject. Dd2 can only do 2 of her 3 subjects in school and goes to the Advanced Higher Hub at Glasgow Caledonian university for 1 subject. There is also agreements with nearby schools so pupils travel between schools to increase the subjects available.
Thinking of such a table though, would you just have the average grades or would you also have the "widening access" grades as well?

I thought that it was pretty typical for private schools to offer 4/5 a levels/letting children do a levels early? Obviously not really relevant here but when I was at school if was definitely the norm, I did quite a few ‘extra’ subjects and did some a year early as well. A lot of girls did.

You can only claim UCAS points for the highest grade in each instrument, so whether you did G6, G7 and G8 or just G8 is irrelevant. As is having a Diploma, which does not attract UCAS points.

@cakeisalwaystheanswer - it's not my experience that IB students are being asked for HL grades rather than point totals. My ds and his peers were all asked for point totals and applied to a range of universities (imperial, bath, durham, Sheffield, Newcastle ) for a range of subjects (zoology, history, medicine, finance). Some needed a specific grade in an HL subject in addition to the points total - eg my ds needed a 5 in HL maths and 38 points overall for Warwick.