university entry standards tariff points - how so high when most people take 3 A levels?

[AvillageinProvence]

Have just been looking at the overall actual entry standards at universities, measured by tariff points, and can't work out how they're so high at some universities! Not talking about offers here, but the points actually achieved by recent entrants.

So, as an example - History - 'Complete university guide' guide says the actual average tariff points achieved are Durham 203, LSE 181, UCL 180, Bristol 177, Exeter 172, York 171. (I've left out Scotland univs as Scottish highers may come into it more, and o/b as I expect they may raise different issues)
Link here:
Top UK University League Tables and Rankings 2020

So, given that A = 56 points, and A = 48, and the norm is now to do 3 arts/humanities A levels, how are they so high? Have people a) done 4 A levels, particularly at Durham as otherwise I don't see how you get to an average* of 203 points? b) done AS levels (I thought these had basically disappeared in arts/humanities) c) done EPQ (thought this was a private/grammar school thing mainly, but could be wrong and anyway that is 28 points at most) d) done lots of music exams? (DofE doesn't give you tariff points).

I don't understand!

@blametheparents - there were lots of stories in the press earlier this year. Try this from
Schools Week: schoolsweek.co.uk/withdrawing-funding-from-the-ib-will-be-a-tragedy-for-social-mobility-heads-warn/

The consultation is at the following URL. The link won't work on mumsnet because it goes over more than one line. You'll need to copy & paste it into your browser. See point 9 on page 8 for the relevant proposal.

consult.education.gov.uk/post-16-qualifications-
review-team/post-16-level-3-and-below-qualifications-
review/supporting_documents/Post%2016%20level%203%20and%20below%20qualifications%20review%
20%20Consultation%20Document.pdf

My daughter's school North London Collegiate (private school) offers IB and A levels. She chose A levels as like most of our family we tend to love concentrating on 3 subjects we adore at sixth form levels. Not eveyone is suited to keeping up more. It has offered IB or A levels since 2004 and I think has one of the highest IB scores in the world. However for some girls A levels are what they want and plenty just choose A levels there. i thikn it is better where children have a choice rather than forceddown the IB route.

FYI I have attached a letter from DS1's head again promoting IB instead of A levels as the most likely to get into a top university. It is on page 3 but I can't copy and past the section. This school was IB only until about 5 years ago and is now 50/50 A levels. In that period Oxbridge offers have declined significantly.

www.kcs.org.uk/media/4286/2019-october-adh.pdf

Hmmm. Not sure he has a grasp of basic statistics. Presumably those IB students who gained entry had met the conditions of their offer, while those A-level students who didn't, hadn't.

IB offers are generally lower, as I said upthread 666 at HL is a lot easier to score than AAA at A level. I think that some unis, e.g. Durham, have very generous IB offers and attract a disproportionate number of IB pupils because of this. No adjustment has ever made to differentiate for the introduction of the A at A level so a 7 isn't even really equivalent to an A*. So few sit IB I don't think that the unis see it as a problem but the way state funding is going it is only private school pupils who will benefit from these generous offers.

But, with IB although it might be 666 at Higher, you then have to factor all the work involved with Standard level subjects.
A 666 at Higher offer often comes with an overall points score requirement as well. For eg, if 666 at Higher then it would not be unusual to be asked 38 points overall - this requires you to get 666 at standard plus 2 core points.
DS had an offer of 38 points at IB for his course, the same course asked for A*,A,A at A level.
On either path - that’s a tough offer.

@SirTobyBelch - thank you for the links.

I'm not saying IB isn't hard work I'm saying that the school reccommends it because students are more likely to make the grades. They particularly do so if the pupil doen't need maths because SL Maths Studies is very easy, little more than Add Maths at GCSE, and can be sat at the end of lower 6th. Similarly bilingual pupils can use their native tongue for the language paper. This school is often the top scoring school in the world for IB, averaging about 41 points, it makes the IB work for them and it's getting something right.

Sorry if I'm repeating what others have said, but totally endorse what Zanda and others have pointed out - UCAS points at entry are totally skewed by extra-curricular activities (often those popular with wealthy middle classes) and international student qualifications.
This makes the 'overall' rankings of tables like those in the Complete University Guide ather meaningless, since the 'top' universities most often correlate with those which have the highest % of private school students and/or international students!
For a much better guide ALWAYS rank with factors such as Employment prospects/ Spend per student/ research intensity etc.

In his first week at a Russell Group Uni DS1 had a phone call from a university admin department asking to go through ALL his extra curricular activities to check that they hadn't missed anything that might accrue some UCAS points for their stats!

Although I don't think we should say it is meaningless that some children have 2 or 3 great 8s or 7s and have spent hours and hours year after year practising and taking part in orchestras when their less active friends might have been sitting in front of the TV or rolling around drunk on local roads. Whilst I accept it is probably easier for those in fee paying schools to afford lessons and have space to practice lots of children in state schools also manage to work hard at their music and pass exams. You might well want to kow which university has people like that - high A level grades and doing hard working hobbies of that kind may be?

@cakeisalwaystheanswer
will be interesting to see how point scores are affected now that maths studies has been replaced - first examination is 2021, I think.

Xenia - you are so funny and out of touch . It's not a binary choice you know - to either be working on your grade 8 bassoon or 'rolling around drunk on local roads' . Plenty of talented musicians simply can't afford the 1-to-1 lessons or the £70-£80 for an ABRSM exam but may play in county level orchestras or suchlike.
But the correlation between % independent school intake and higher UCAS points is very clear which is why those unis with the highest independent school intakes tend to be higher up the table. If you stripped out all but the top 3 A level grades it would be a different picture.
And I say this as someone who has a child with Grade 8 distinctions in music from an independent school!

There are also hundreds of other "valid" hobbies that don't attract UCAS points including athletics, water sports, dance, gymnastics, scouting, martial arts, equestrian, cadets, volunteering, film making, writing and a stack of others equally middle class or otherwise. It's not as if everyone without a grade 8 instrument is a drunken layabout .

MotherofOne agree.

I went to private then public school. We had scheduled lessons at primary school in music theory. It was expected we played an instrument (and bought it) and paid extra for one to one 30 minute lessons that were scheduled for lunchtimes (lunchtimes were over an hour) or straight after school, arranged by the school. At public school we had Saturday school too so music lessons then.

My children go/went to state school. They have a much shorter school day and the paid for music lessons are 20mins long and shared between 2 people. Children have to come out of lessons for this which means catching up. The private lessons are contracted out so continuity is sometimes not there. There are no private school lessons arranged after school by the school. They don’t have the admin staff for this.

Similar situation with D of E. My private schooled sibling got Gold - my parents didn’t do a thing apart from buy clothes off a list provided by the school. I on the other hand was sorting tent/stove/fuel buying/sharing, photocopying map directions, sorting out in-the-field volunteers etc etc. I know D of E doesn’t give you ‘points’ but you get the picture. It requires a lot of goodwill, more time and effort from state schooled children’s parents because schools don’t have the resources.

My Dd said one of her A Level teachers was given the photocopying budget for last year - 50p per pupil. For the year. That’s what you are working with sometimes.

Despite the lack of resources, the teachers are fantastic. Many of them stay behind for choirs/ band practices but it’s not formal examinations that get you points.

Lots of private school pupils don't do music of course too and I certainly agree it is not a choice of music exams or spending your teenage years drunk - although a lot of teenagers don't do much.

As the music exams does not determine who gets to university as I said above parents do not need to worry about that aspect as I've said. It would be unfair to those teenagers who slog it out day after day practising though is no credit is given for that effort on an a CV compared with some idle people but I agree that other hobbies (other than drinking and computer games and sex) are probably equally as valid.

As for university rankings based on UCAS points I don't think any one shoudl be picking on that basis. Just look at those which have the hardest A level requirements to enter overall and look at the CVs of new recruits of the jobs you would like to have on graduation to get an idea of which university are best for that career path.

Xenia yes agree with you about As for university rankings based on UCAS points I don't think any one shoudl be picking on that basis. Just look at those which have the hardest A level requirements to enter overall
And we are back to the OPs question because it seems you can only find out what points people may have for a course.
Until the universities give a breakdown on the A Levels grades /IB scores that were excepted it will still be impossible to judge whether it’s worth a gamble putting a particular choice down on a UCAS form because we all know what universities say they ‘require’ and what they take is different each year.

Hi, it's op again! Still interested in the maths!

Going back to Durham History and the 203 average. I can see that more students than average in the UK may do music grades - but are there really enough of those, out of roughly ?170 students admitted each year, to bring the average up to 203? Even if most Durham History students got three A stars (correct?/not correct?).

Say, the 'maximum' that the very musically talented student with one instrument gets is 168 + 40 (grade 8 practical and theory) + 28 for the EPQ = 236. You would need a lot of those students to bring the average up to 203 if the majority of students get "only" 168 (just your regular three A stars!). In practice I would have thought it's still very much the minority who do even grade 6 in one instrument. The large number of students means the figures aren't being skewed by a few outliers. Yes there may be students with grade 8 in two instruments = 276, but surely very few out of 170., again not enough to bring the average up that high?

Seems (from this thread - admittedly a limited sample!) that Highers are unlikely to be the answer because relatively few Scotland students go to English univs.

Is it back to IBAC for the explanation?

From our own limited experience with DS's friends a lot of the kids who went to Durham were very high achievers:

• 4 or 5 A levels
• One or two Grade 8 Music/ Drama (and some at Diploma)

Bearing in mind that nearly 40% of Durham is independent school students, I think it IS possible that this brings up the average, along with international students and the IBAC?

Why not give Admissions a call and ask? I find the admissions people very helpful for these sort of questions.

I agree that the uniersities could usefully say what people who get places have in terms of As and A stars at A level rather than just UCAS pionts. Parents and teenagers may want to assess which are the harder universities.

A fairly good indicators is on this link www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities-2019. I know it is just for law but law firms need those who are able to pass the exams and work in a fairly intellectually demanding job so where they recruit from can be helpful to examine as it will be a similar list for similar kinds of jobs with higher than average graduate pay www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities-2019.