university entry standards tariff points - how so high when most people take 3 A levels?

[AvillageinProvence]

Have just been looking at the overall actual entry standards at universities, measured by tariff points, and can't work out how they're so high at some universities! Not talking about offers here, but the points actually achieved by recent entrants.

So, as an example - History - 'Complete university guide' guide says the actual average tariff points achieved are Durham 203, LSE 181, UCL 180, Bristol 177, Exeter 172, York 171. (I've left out Scotland univs as Scottish highers may come into it more, and o/b as I expect they may raise different issues)
Link here:
Top UK University League Tables and Rankings 2020

So, given that A = 56 points, and A = 48, and the norm is now to do 3 arts/humanities A levels, how are they so high? Have people a) done 4 A levels, particularly at Durham as otherwise I don't see how you get to an average* of 203 points? b) done AS levels (I thought these had basically disappeared in arts/humanities) c) done EPQ (thought this was a private/grammar school thing mainly, but could be wrong and anyway that is 28 points at most) d) done lots of music exams? (DofE doesn't give you tariff points).

I don't understand!

The universities (the good ones) don't choose ont he bsais of UCAS points. I have 4 grade 8s including grade 8 theory and children have a good few music exams but I doubt they were even looked at for university entry as it would be grades alone that mattered where htey went and not all children get the chance to learn instruments to grades 6 - 8 - it is only 6 - 8 you can put on the UCAS form.

I believe you put all graeds 6 and higher. It was one reason most of my children tried to do every grade from 6 - 8 rather than skipping one, not that it made a differnce to university entrance. I think one dughter had to add up UCAS points for a law firm application however so her piano, singng and 'cello. might have marginally helped.

So the first post says Bristol avegage 177 points. One of my twqins got AAA and is at Bristol so 48 x 3 = 144. Grade 6/7/8 trumpet 34 (he just passed each of those). Grade 6 and 7 singing - 10. (He didn't do exams in his guitar lessons - his choice not beyond grade 5 anyway and graed 5 theory doesn't count for UCAS).
So his 144 goes to 188.

His older brother did, with good marks in most, grades 6 - 8 trumpet, 6 -8 singing, 6 - 8 drum kit and 6 and 7 piano and had even more points than the younger two.

However if Bristol is considering a candidate they will look at your A level predictions, not your music exams and if you go to one of hte 40% of worst schools in the country you may even only need a grade or even 2 grade less than a child at a school in the "top" 60% because of their contextual marking.

Thanks all - this has been very educational!

Yes, absolutely agree these universities are looking at A level or equivalent grades, not any other "sources of points" when making offers. The reason I was asking was that I was intrigued because couldn't see mathematically how these averages could be reached!

The answer seems to be a combination of Scottish students who add some Highers to their Advanced Highers; ibac;, and music grades. It's interesting how much the ibac adds up to, Shanghai - my impression is that UK ibac students tend not to do AS levels as well, but even without them, if they'll be getting over 250 points they'll be bumping the averages up massively! I think 4 A levels is not uncommon with more stem/mathsy type degrees - much less so now with humanities. (Though still some intrepid arts/humanities students who go for it!)

I think those stats for UCAS points historically achieved may well be using the [[https://www.ucas.com/sites/default/files/Tariff%2520factsheet%2520-%2520for%2520advisers.pdf
Old UCAS points system]] , not the current one. Screenshot of the relevant part of that document attached.

Until the last year or so, many people will have had AS - levels as well. Although they are optional within the specification, many schools were still encouraging people to take them at first, though that seems to be tailing off.

Durham only has 40% students from private schools so that wouldn't account for this sort of thing.

General Studies A-level had its last sitting this summer. Critical Thinking was last summer. Good unis would have been unlikely to include either in an offer, although they might have been taken into account as part of the wider picture eg if your General Studies project was relevant to the degree you're applying for & you explained this on the personal statement.

Top universities almost never require 4 A-levels, though it's preferred for some science courses.

My friend who left Oxford uni a couple of years ago was involved in various outreach events trying to attract applicants from diverse backgrounds. One of the myths they had to bust was that you needed 4 A-levels. The uni is keen to get that message across.

Another parent of Scottish student with 232 points here. I suppose the UCAS points these days are only useful as a rough benchmark since they aren't used for entry, for instance when there seems to be a significant difference between minimum offer and actual offers etc.

I went to Durham and did 4 A Levels and the Welsh Baccalaureate. 4 A Levels was absolutely the norm there.

The tariffs achieved by students is historic and doesn’t reflect the current situation, eg no AS points, no Critical Thinking. It includes tariffs not required for selection. It’s just info about students.

Also Maths grads often offer 4 A levels for top maths courses. One will be FM as the 4th A level so the high scores of students is to be expected.

Ah yes - the explanatory annotations (!) say the info is taken from HESA (higher ed stats) for 2017-2018, so may include some critical thinking, general studies and a few AS levels - their demise has been gradual! FM unlikely to play a part I would have thought for the Eng/History stats, though you never know! Still, the 4th A level has also had a gradual (partial) demise, so there may have been slightly more 4 A level people in 2017-18. Emery that's interesting about 4 A levels being the norm, were you stem, or maybe a while back?

You're right all, the figure tells one little (nothing?) about entry requirements - it is indeed just information about the students who end up on that course. My question was simply how on earth can the average be so high? MN has been (as often the case) very informative!

I was a while back. I graduated in 2011. Are four A Levels very rare now?

Yup
because AS is gone
modular exams are gone
grade boundaries have returned to normal distribution methods

Interesting - I wonder if changing the rules on retakes, and then phasing out ASs as 'part 1' of the A levels, has marginally contributed to a reduction in the number of people taking 4 humanities A levels? When you could (i) get half the marks at the end of yr 12, and (ii) retake in January to get those marks up, 4 A levels may have been less of a 'risk' than it is now.

Now that so much hangs on a very few exams at the end of yr 13 and you have nothing 'banked', it may seem too high risk to go for 4 A levels, and risk getting lower grades in those than concentrating on 3. (The argument is slightly diluted by the existence of coursework but not wholly - you don't know what grade you've got in that until ?15 August of yr 13, so there isn't the risk reduction element that you got with AS levels.)

Having said that, I don't think 4 humanities A levels was ever that common - most students in humanities/arts used to drop one of the 4 AS levels and do 3 A2s. (The system had its advantages, looking back! Though it also meant students didn't get a year off public exams.)

Only about 25% of LSE students come from the UK, so there will be quite a range of qualifications. Entry onto some courses will be very competitive so it will be normal for many students to exceed standard entry qualifications. A good proportion will be from selective schools, either private or state, Uk or internationally, where is is still common for those at the top of the year group to take four A levels. Quite a high proportion will be bi- or tri- lingual so may have have additional language A levels or equivalent. Plus music.

None of this matters. Universities want students who have the most potential. They know that grades will, to some extent, reflect differences in educational opportunity. They will be working very hard to identify those who have been educationally disadvantaged but are likely to thrive when given the right opportunities. Applications need to highlight interest and potential.

not a lot of coursework outside Art and Music now ....

I think coursework is still around in some English and History boards at least, unless it's been discontinued very recently.

Agree the entry standards don't matter as regards prospects of getting an offer/acceptance - but interesting to know how the figure is calculated! Yes it may well be that the schools that still do 4 humanities/arts/mfls are more widespread than I thought - a few years ago it did seem that a number of schools responded to the reforms by going for 4 full A levels. Although quite a few retreated quite quickly to 3 (or maybe starting 4 subjects, then dropping 1 at end of Yr 12, without taking a public exam).

English Literature, Geography and History A levels have a 20 % coursework element. It is called a non exam assessment, and takes the form of a mini dissertation.

It is clear that some of the posters on this thread are unfamiliar with the current A level format.

All A levels are now linear which means that all A level students sit all of their A level exams at the end of year 13. These are tougher than the old system of sitting half an A level at the end of year 12 and the other half at the end of year 13.

Most students take 3 A levels. Only the super bright take 4, and most of them tend to be students taking maths and further maths.

Ah ys AS. I forgot that one. Actually my younger Bristol son with 188 goes up another 20 as I forgot he has an AS in the subject to dropped after lower sixth - so has 208 UCAS points. That puts him above the 177 Bristol average UCAS points.

So, my "underperforming" DD with AAA at A level and an A at AS level has a mere 164 UCAS points.
Yet was offered a scholarship from Lancaster.

@AvillageinProvence - agree it's not the norm to have AS levels and the IB. My ds took the AS levels with his GCSEs and then moved schools for sixth form and took the IB so he is not a standard case.
@Ginfordinner - I don't think anyone was suggesting that 164 points means that your dd is an 'underperformer.' AAA and an A at AS are very good results.
I think that points for music exams are irrelevant (unless applying for music) and I don't imagine have any impact on university offers.

I will say that based on my experience some of the brightest students under the old system used to think it was great fun to see how many UCAS points you could amass! Probably sad/geeky but 500 targets were 'usual' and led to some of us doing a lot of extra AS levels (when that was a thing). I don't know if it was widespread but our college let us as long as we didn't spread ourselves too thinly (I.e. as long as we got As across the board it looked great for them on results day).

One of mine has 182 or 184 (just totted them up on the online UCAS tariff calculator, but forgotten already! ). Has 3 A levels ranging from A* to C grades. An AS in one subject. EPQ (state comprehensive and EPQ was compulsory except for very lowest attainers). Grade 8 Distinction in one instrument. If all his A level grades had been high, would have easily reached around 200. Not that it's at all relevant to anything - all the unis he applied to went on grades.

www.ucas.com/file/259341/download?token=GXu_Pq-H

This gives the points.
Egalitarian for points allocated to top grades even a D1 at preU (although difficult of preU recognised by scale of points awarded at lower grades).
IB provides equivalent to 3 A levels and 3 AS levels.

Xenia from memory it is only the highest level music grade per instrument that can be entered but only up to grade 8 though with no points allocated for a diploma.

As OP and PPs say, UCAS points are used as a measure of entry standards for university comparison tables rather than entry requirements.

Universities with more Scottish students with advanced highers or IB students will have UCAS points skewed to the higher range.
The points for each qualification type are supposed to be allocated on basis of learning hours.

send, I checked yesterday and I still you put all of your grades 6 - 8 unlke with A levels where you just put your top one - eg you put your A2 (Alevel) not the AS you also got in that subject but I might be wrong. It was definitely the case when my older children applied and one reason they did each of grade 6 7 and 8 as well as the fact that encouraged them to keep practising. However I cannot quite tell from the UCAS tool. ABRSM implies it is all gb.abrsm.org/en/our-exams/information-and-regulations/exam-regulation-and-ucas-points/ I could be wrong as just quickly looking at this does not answer it www.ucas.com/ucas/tariff-calculator. I really do remember my twins having to look up all their grades from 6 - 8 not just the highest 2 or 3 years ago.

Anyway if I am right or wrong it does not matter as Ginfor dinner's son for example who got identical grades to one of my twins AAA and A in AS in the 4th has 164 and although my son's music takes him to 208 possibly no one will be looking at that most of the time so parents whose children slumped in front of the TV rather than practising 3 instruments or washed the feet of the poor or whatever else teenagers do will find it is only the A level grades that matter for most university entrance other than someone with very very low grades indeed who is trying to get into a course with Ds only.

At DD's (RG) university the admissions tutor told us that he didn't read personal statements unless they had a borderline applicant. They are far more interested in A level grades.

In DD's case staying on top of 3 A level subjects and being a young leader at Brownies was as much as she could cope with as she has CFS, so I'm glad that she wasn't discriminated against for not having a more rounded application. Her school didn't offer the EPQ.

I'd always assumed that just the top ABRSM grade counted (in each instrument), though neither the ABRSM nor UCAS documentation is clear about this. Surely it makes sense to give more credit for grade 6, grade 7 and grade 8 in three separate instruments than in just one?

Just by counting the top grades on each instrument, one of my daughters has 100 UCAS points from her ABRSM exams. If she counted all her music exams, she'd have almost 200. She also had 180 points from 3 A levels plus 1 AS, so even on a conservative estimate, she had 280 UCAS points. That's probably unusual, but she did a music degree, so is likely to have taken a lot more music exams than most people.

My other daughter has a more normal 202 points, again from a combination of 3 A levels, 1 AS and various music exams, which is not dissimilar to the figures quoted in the OP.

So someone with BBB at A level but is a musical genius could have more UCAS points than someone who is more academically able. I'm glad that DD's university look at A level grades only otherwise she wouldn't have got in.