Is Oxford only for rich families?

[Foslady]

My dd is taking GCSe’s Next year and her school are having various universities in to talk to the pupils. When the Oxford representatives came they mentioned that due to circumstances for one of the colleges there was a very generous bursary you can apply for. This particular college has the course that dd wants to study and now she’s thinking ‘why not?’. I want to support her in all her choices, academically she is quite gifted, and yes, there is a huge time period before university application, but I don’t know if we are the ‘right’ kind of people for Oxford. Up until recently I was a lone parent on a low wage. I now am with my partner but money is still tight (and to be honest if she was awarded the bursary it would be amazing , a massive help). I don’t want to ruin her dreams but at the same time, in reality, are they feasible or am I just kidding myself?

DD was encouraged to apply to Oxbridge and went for interview - what I felt was missing was real information about different unis. It was definitely up to parents to help with this (and I think if you are first generation uni it is incredibly confusing) I was surprised at the lack of help - my sons school I think is very different.

derived from the BBC version of Brideshead in 1982

Not wishing to sidetrack, but Brideshead was on ITV. Seriously. They made a big thing of it at the time, the fact that everyone seemed to assume that it was a BBC production.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brideshead_Revisited_(TV_serial)

Well corrected Marching Frogs! I just assumed - I watched it at the time and can't recall the advert breaks, though they must have been there. At least I'm in good company it seems!

So how does any school over come these factors, like our school just getting kids to think of university is a win,

@@BoysandaCairn** - That's such an important point.

The Brilliant Club is an organisation set up to remedy this. They have data which indicates that the best chance of getting pupils from very deprived areas to apply to uni and if appropriate Oxbridge, is to involve them while they are still at primary school. they go into primaries and secondaries and work with bright, disadvantaged children. They will take them to visit Oxford and Cambridge on day trips, encourage them to attend summer schools etc, and work on set projects with them to help them extend their horizons but also to instil self-directed learning. It's an excellent set up with a really good ethos and anyone who's worrried about the imbalance can get in touch asnd ask them to approach a given school, or contact their school's head teacher to push for contact to be established.

Incidentally, one of the things that made me long to go to Oxford from my Northern comp that had no track record of Oxbridge was watching brideshead on TV.

OneStep: there are all sorts of ways to encourage applications but how do you get over the ingrained views that students seem to have that they won’t fit in and this is reinforced by parents (just read this thread) and schools that make little effort?

There is no doubt that some teachers don’t believe their students should go there anyway! They think anywhere else is just as good and openly say this. Parents then have to take up the battle but plenty find this difficult and make excuses like accent, buildings, insufficient money, unable to mix with people they think are arrogant without ever talking to them etc. These are barriers that it will be very difficult for Oxbridge to break down unless parents and young people are open to engagement.

When we visited on a subject open day we found some parents and their DC very annoying but we secretly laughed! Of course some are up themselves but the majority are not. It’s a matter of having the confidence to ignore such people and believe in yourself. Don’t be put off by external appearances and when you are at a university like Oxford you find there are people like you.

It is really important for the parents, schools and DC to put the barriers to one side or indeed leap over them. Schools not bothering, parents saying their lifestyle cannot lead to anything different for their children and DC who don’t seem to be able to gain confidence from their intelligence all need to be challenged by everyone in education and in particular leadership in schools.

Are your DC at Oxbridge Bubbles?

And also it is interesting that you blame the problem on the disadvantaged children rather than the way society and education establishments such as Oxbridge have arranged themselves so as to prevent certain sections of society succeeding.

People always bring immigrant families into it. The fact is that immigrants are by definition the sort of people who will do everything they can to imrove their children's futures in any way possible.

“but how do you get over the ingrained views that students seem to have that they won’t fit in “

Change some of the factors that create that view?

Avoid having working class visitors shown round by students who laugh at the servants who make their beds in hall every day? Give the college rock band a gig on Open Days instead of taking people to the all white male choir rehearsal for Evensong in the Chapel.

Have a long hard look at the existence of clubs like Bullingdon (it isn’t the only one) and have the Colleges, Universities and students ask themselves how socially selective / exclusive societies can be allowed?

Develop and instigate diversity and equal opps policies. Encourage people to talk about and challenge racism (yes, my Dc’s friends have experienced blatant racism at a Cambridge College in the form of ‘jokes ‘ and a ‘prank’ ).

Go and talk to those very high performing BAME students who choose (yes CHOOSE, not ‘accept’) LSE or Imperial over Oxbridge and ask them for detailed feeedback and advice.

Go and spend some of that outreach time actually talking to the highest performing Pupil Premium /BAME students in schools about their perceptions and experiences at Open Days and during the application process. Talk in detail to the same students after two years at Oxbridge and ask their advice on addressing diversity. Do this via an independent third party diversity-experienced company for credibility.

Stop leaving it all in the hands of white middle class people who are confident they understand and even know of everyone else’s experience.

In DS’s second year at Oxford, he went with a group to go to a friend’s birthday party, in her home town. She had gone to a school in a tough area and was also going back to her school to talk about Oxford to encourage more to apply. She asked DS and two others to join her, as they could then cover more subjects.

At the talk, in the any questions section, it was asked how they dealt with all the “posh prats” and were they really horrible. Friend pointed to DS and said that DS had gone to a famous school and they had all been chatting to him at the break quite happily. After the talk DS chatted to people and answered more questions. —mostly about what it is like to board—. He went back to this school for 2 more years, as an example of a “posh prat” and seeing he was ok helped to increase the number of people who applied.

When volunteers were originally requested, as part of the outreach programme DS did not volunteer, as he did not feel it appropriate - maybe this was wrong and a greater cross-section of the students should take part.

there are all sorts of ways to encourage applications but how do you get over the ingrained views that students seem to have that they won’t fit in?

Bubbles I genuinely don't understand your question. The answer to it is in the first half of it. By encouraging applicants! Part of that encouragement process is demystifying the place. I've seen Oxford students (all from state schools) who campaign for wider access wearing teeshirts that say"I belong here so do you."

Ohallright - that is such an interetsing story and such a good idea. Alongside the 'I come from state school, so can you' volunteers there should be a set of private school volunteers to helpdissolve the 'us and them' attitude.

Avoid having working class visitors shown round by students who laugh at the servants who make their beds in hall every day?

Bloody hell, that's awful. When I was living in college our scouts (*) were pretty much adored (and I left my bin outside my door every day so didn't get my bed made). Dd's scout in her first year (only year she lived in) was also fantastic, and respected by all, can't imagine anyone laughing at him.

• • cleaner. Oxford jargon. Unlike what a pp suggested, most people come to Oxford not knowing all the words for things, and learn then very quickly. It's no different to slang or local dialect, and really shouldn't put people off.

And also it is interesting that you blame the problem on the disadvantaged children rather than the way society and education establishments such as Oxbridge have arranged themselves so as to prevent certain sections of society succeeding.

I agree with this, it’s a bizarre attitude. I applaud Oxbridge for the effort they’ve made thus far to increase inclusivity, but there’s so much further to go and so many more ways the system could be improved (as outlined wonderfully by TwoInTents). I appreciate that it isn’t the fault of Oxbridge (and other top unis) that their student body isn’t as diverse as it should be, but that’s not the fault of the students who don’t apply. It’s the fault of societal standards that make these students feel like they won’t belong.

Just saying “oh you’ll be fine, you’ll me great people, don’t worry” a few times is never going to be enough to cancel out 18 years of life in a grossly stratified society... it takes a lot of effort and I’m really glad Oxbridge and other universities are starting to recognise and tackle that, and I hope it has positive results.

I don't blame the students who don't apply. I do blame some teachers who put them off, and don't inform them of opportunities.
Only this week I sat through a talk where the teacher in trying to highlight that non Oxbridge non Russell Group Universities can be more suited to some styles of learning or interests - but instead he came across as putting students off applying. And this was a school with a history of Oxbridge success. ( In comparison the local private selective Girls school has a "risk an application if you don't try you won't know" approach.)

TwoInTents hoorays don't stay on after term in June or come back especially in the middle of September (when they could perfectly well be playing polo), simply to laugh at 'servants' (curiously antiquated language there) in front of prospective 'working class' (ditto) students. What nonsense.

You think that racism is a novel concept to those in charge in Oxford and is allowed - encouraged even - to flourish unchecked?

You think the idea of checking in with PP students and BAME students is a new one?

Please.

Interesting read ... totally agree with pp who stated :

I'd say no- there has probably never been a better time for teenagers from an economically disadvantaged background to apply to top universities. There are outreach schemes, bursaries, quotas they are trying to reach...

I think it's key though that you present the opportunity to your child as eminently achievable. Because it is! To even be on the radar of these universities when you haven't had a privileged upbringing is testament to real talent and ability.

Op - Two of friends DD's are currently at Oxbridge - both from single parent families - both studying Maths/Economics...working extremely hard and both have fitted in with no issues and both have internships lined up ...

oneteen what sort of school did those two friends go to? Was it the independent school that your DD attends or an under performing comprehensive? Single parent doesn't equate to underprivileged. A lot of students from less well off families are less well off because they come from a family which though middle class, has seen divorce - so one needs to take care before conflating that group with the genuinely disadvantaged.

Goodbyestranger - The one DC came from a disadvantaged area/poor comp in the East End of London - mum is a teaching assistant and has struggled to bring both her DC's up with no support from their DF (she;s not English either) the other girl whilst NOT from a disadvantaged family has seen total turmoil through her education - in terms of moving to another country whilst in the midst of GCSE's (yr10) and actually sitting the IGCSE exams alone - whilst the rest of her family had moved back to the UK following the death of a grandparent, then moving back to the UK to sit A Levels. So NOT disadvantaged but not the easiest route into Oxbridge.

Also people label families with DC in Independent schools - both DF and I never attended Uni - dont have degrees - DD's DF is actually a train driver and I worked my way up in financial services the hard way...we can afford a private education for DD (because she only attended from Yr8), she is an only child and we are not spring chickens. I would have much preferred for DD to be in the state system but unfortunately we dont have the luxury of living in a grammar school area (like you) - our county education was in complete disarray when we moved DD because they were trying to change from a 3 tier system to a 2 tier system without any funding....I think nearly all the schools in our area are on the contextual offers list - certainly the school that DD attended until mid Yr8 is.

oneteen I agree, people do label (as I think you may have just done with reference to the grammar!).

I did wonder if the students in question came from your DD's independent school because if so, they wouldn't have been in a category of note as regards 'fitting in'. Being in a single parent family doesn't constitute disadvantage per se. Indeed it's arguable that divorced or separated middle class families who fall in the less well off (ie income below the £16k threshold) aren't disadvantaged for Oxbridge or Pupil Premium purposes either, but that's another whole area of dispute.

As far as disadvantage goes - and all credit to the first friend mentioned - I do think one has to be careful before wheeling out all sorts of domestic turmoil as disadvantage. Oxbridge can't hope to negate all domestic turmoil (although to an extent the exam system with the opportunity for mitigation in certain limited circumstances can help, as can the school reference). It's purpose is to try to help those with true educational disadvantage, which isn't the same as moving house or country during an independent education or any of life's common difficulties such as having a grandparent dying (given the average age of grandparents when their grandchildren are taking public exams, that's really quite common).

No doubt this sounds hard nosed but I have to add, without going into details, that my own DC would count as seriously disadvantaged on a whole raft of measures, some more so than others. But they went to a grammar school so nothing else counts, or should count, and we've never exploited any other disadvantage at all.

Bad typing as usual - 'who fall in the less well off category'.

I agree with oneteen too. There's no better time than now for the less well off to apply to Oxbridge. Not just because there is a lot of outreach and there's finance available but because of pastoral and mentoring schemes in place while you;re there. I got into oxford from a Northern Comp. But I was quite lost when I got there. These days there are socail clubs specifically for state school students or first ones from family to attend uni. It's much more welcoming now.

I've just googled, "How many members are there in The Bullingdon Club?"
The general consensus amongst the national press appears to range from 2 members to 4 members - definitely exclusive then.