Is Oxford only for rich families?

[Foslady]

My dd is taking GCSe’s Next year and her school are having various universities in to talk to the pupils. When the Oxford representatives came they mentioned that due to circumstances for one of the colleges there was a very generous bursary you can apply for. This particular college has the course that dd wants to study and now she’s thinking ‘why not?’. I want to support her in all her choices, academically she is quite gifted, and yes, there is a huge time period before university application, but I don’t know if we are the ‘right’ kind of people for Oxford. Up until recently I was a lone parent on a low wage. I now am with my partner but money is still tight (and to be honest if she was awarded the bursary it would be amazing , a massive help). I don’t want to ruin her dreams but at the same time, in reality, are they feasible or am I just kidding myself?

@BertrandRussell - i don’t think these parents would have been engaged or Indian / SE / E Asian or North / East African. Because in my experience the majority are often so engaged, even with poor english skills, that they will often spend their last pennies on revision books and tuition to push their kids to high academic qualification (and some of these kids may be running businesses / caring for loved ones / working on the side) — they just don’t have access to the ‘system’ to know how and when to apply and the state schools aren’t catered for high achievers. Schools in deprived areas need universities to approach them.

@goodbyestranger — all of the schools are Harvard. This is Harvard data.

Bertrand it's the responsibility of the school not the parent to show the student the quad. Any Ho6 worth his salt should be capable of getting appropriate students to any of of the Open Days and indeed lower down the school there are ample opportunities offered to target schools. There's no excuse for a school not using the outreach offered. That's their bleeding job.

No I think we're talking Harvard. I am anyway :)

By which I mean Harvard College. We're not talking Law School or any of the other graduate or medical schools. Have you looked at the list?

Cross post with your point about parents in deprived areas. I'd say again: Ho6 needs to do his job, properly.

Oh dear, so not only are poor northern comprehensives, missing out on telling their students how to get in to Oxford, we are also been discriminated against by Havard too, because unlike Cherries101's London state schools and Goodbyestrangers' Devon SS, I can definitely confirm they have not targeted Yorkshire, well the east coast part.
We are definitely been double discriminated
So I wonder if poor northern kids should follow PP and learn about Quads, medieval buildings and all things stars and stripes, then it won't be "not for the likes of us"
Hate to think that the Ivy Leagues too would feel the need to blame poor deprived kids for not applying

Can you definitely confirm that though 2Boys? I would think the vast majority of parents in the area won't know about the approaches made, since it's up to the schools to focus on the students who might benefit from that help. If you're not the parent of such a student, you might well not know. Lots of initiatives aren't known to the wider parent community.

My DC haven't applied to the US so we've never had group sessions singing The Star-Spangled Banner but nor have they grown up surrounded by quads. The kids where you are don't need to do either. They haven't missed out on that score although it sounds as though they have missed out by having a school which is poorly led and has a seriously lacklustre Ho6.

Like Bertrand I live in an area with high deprivation, god my parents where born in what now counts as 2 of the poorest council estates in Britain, 1 has 65% unemployment and 55% of the adults don't have GCSE's.
So how does any school over come these factors, like our school just getting kids to think of university is a win, even a non local is a win.

I remember reading an exchange on an Oxbridge thread, one Poster's Dc was northern only one from her school/area to have got in, they where finding it hard to settle in. Lots of well meaning fellow posters came on to say their Dc where also struggling but would get easier.
But many of their Dc had numerous friends from school going too, or had friends who had gone in previous years, if they had a gap year, or had friend of friends there, or siblings or had mummy or daddy who done it all before.
So surely even they could see their Dc where automatically at an advantage?

It's an antidote, it's personal, doesn't involve Oxford, so feel free to ignore, but Ds1 is first to go to university in our immediate family, of the 50 odd kids at school 6th and the 70 odd he knows from rugby, Dofe and cadets, he was only one who applied to University of Lincoln and only one going. He was very nervous, and slightly unsure even once results where out and he accepted his place. We as parents told him to try it, go for it until at least Christmas, preferably for the first year, but he could always change his mind etc, he had no one to talk to about, all friends off to local one or mainly Leeds Beckitt, Huddersfield or Salford. Plus their was nowt much on student room or mumsnet, certainly no 3x1000 threads!

But in the school holidays, he met a old rugby team mate and they get talking and turns out that friend was off to Lincoln too. They talked over Facebook. Ds1 suddenly engaged with Lincoln university SM and then found this accommodation group and was never off SM/FB. couldn't wait to go. Turns out in the 10 weeks he been there he hasn't seen or heard from his old team mate. His friends come from flat mates, RL team, course mates and random students he's meet at SU.
What I am trying to say, very badly, if you are part of the herd, crowd it is so much easier for teenagers to succeed. No one likes to stand out or go against the norm , even many adults struggle, it is either a very confident individual or possibly a pigheaded and arrogant person who does what they want, when no one else does it.

I truly think that's why the "not for the likes of us" comes in for either

1. Bertrands poor friend and the book shop OR
2. kids at poor performing schools or from deprived backgrounds If you never meet an Oxford student/graduate from your school or background and only ever meet the posh and privately educated ones or see the ones consistently on TV, you are going to think it's not for me I think it is complicated, but Oxford and Cambridge do have a massive part to play, and I think they have to get out of their cosy Ivory towers and engage with kids who would never engage with them. I know they try hard. But using Grammar schools or private schools, like in our area, as hubs, is self defeating. Why? you all say they invite any one to attend. But if at a comprehensive in Grammar school area or in a poor preforming com like ours, asked to go to private school, is wrong, even stupid, because the kids you want most, have been told you can't go there, either they "failed" the 11+ or private school is out of each. Kids hate going to places they have been denied access to.

Sorry long post, but I do try and think things thorough. I don't hate Oxford or Cambridge, like 99% of parents I want kids to succeed.

Goodbyestranger
My Wife's best friend Ds is in the top 10 in year 13, I know they have had no invite to either Oxford, Cambridge or any US Ivy league universities. Ds1 knows the four in his year, and no US invites.
I know from all the academy discussions, that the school isn't on Oxford or Ivy league's horizons.
It is one of Ofsted's many complaints.

abilockhart the architecture of Cambridge is even grander and surely more off putting for that, even if quads have a different name over there. So you did actually manage to get past that.

I find this remark to be incredibly snide, goodbyestranger.

I said nothing whatsoever about quads.

Cherries as goodbyestranger has pointed out, it is only Harvard College that offers undergraduate degrees. You cannot include the graduate schools (including the medical school) for sixth form applications. Hence the requirement to filter the search and the result of about 2 scholars per year for the whole of the UK.

" Oxford discourages students from working, that’s why it has the reputation it has amongst poorer students."

As far as I know , Oxford discourages students from working in term time because of very short terms . Quid pro quo is that accommodation is generally cheaper than many other universities. I would like to post this to discourage the view that Oxford is not for poorer students on economic grounds. ( just one point)

but it is easier for a disadvantaged minority student to get into Harvard than Oxbridge
That is very very far from true from the facts.

OK I shall say this one more time - I can understand that some may be discouraged from applying to Oxford because their school etc is not supportive ( and @Bertrandrussell - I do get the Waterstones point and very sad ) I am not an outreach person for Oxford. All I can say , is of all the reasons any DC should not apply to Oxford , not being able to find friends of any type who are congenial, once there , should not be one of them - probably put too many nots in there ) but point is - huge number of students most of which are friendly , no matter who you are

I'm responding only the the OP, but I'll read everybody else's posts once I've replied.

I'd say no- there has probably never been a better time for teenagers from an economically disadvantaged background to apply to top universities. There are outreach schemes, bursaries, quotas they are trying to reach...

I think it's key though that you present the opportunity to your child as eminently achievable. Because it is! To even be on the radar of these universities when you haven't had a privileged upbringing is testament to real talent and ability.

goodbyestranger - while I agree with you that in an ideal world the Ho6 (or some other title with responsibility for higher education) ought to be supporting the brightest students with applications to Oxbridge, my (limited) experience in the real world has shown me that some Ho6 or equivalent really are almost unbelievably ignorant and narrow minded about pupils’ post-18 opportunities. So it is then up to parents.

2Boys As this thread has gone on, I have been interested to read your posts and can see that you make real efforts to try and improve the lot of young people in your area, even though I disagree with you about Oxford!
I know someone who is head of UCAS applications and also has pastoral care responsibilities at a 6th form in a deprived, old northern industrial town. No grammars or private schools. Many students are 2nd generation immigrants with no family history of university education and parents who though supportive have no idea about the UCAS process. Some mothers do not have good English skills and families want to keep daughters close to home for cultural reasons.Like your situation it is hard to get students to look beyond their local uni. Going to the one 30 miles away is considered adventurous.
However, this friend, every year, gives up their time outside school hours to take a group to Oxford for open days, staying in a college overnight. They fund raise to subsidise the trip as many families struggle. Even if kids do not apply it opens their eyes to other opportunities and helps erode the "not for us" myths. Perhaps your school could do something similar and if the Ho6 contact the university and requests it, I bet they'll send someone to your school.
I now better understand your frustrations, but I still think this is a 2 way street. Oxford can expand its outreach, schools can be more proactive and students too can be more open minded about mixing with people who are different. Nobody is to blame.

We also live in an area with very low Polar and Acorn scores, in the North, and neither myself or anyone in my generation did anything more than A Levels, the school sends few students to Oxbridge. Dd is currently waiting to hear if she has an interview at Oxford, we know our chances are slim, as there are very many excellent applicants for places, of all backgrounds. That's just a fact. Perhaps she's not as polished as some candidates, for want of a better word, I'd hope they will be able to still find the skills and attributes required (or not).

I would think maybe that the schools have to reach out to Oxbridge, I'm not sure.

I know that in response to an email I sent (actually about providing some photos re UNIQ) the H of Y said that the school had invited Oxbridge admissions to school, but they had had to wait until late September (not ideal for the writing of a PS) as they were fully booked in July, when they had asked for a visit.

Also, the school, for the first time this year, have organised mock interviews, Dd has hers on Monday.

I just don't think it's a simple as laying the blame solely at the door of Oxbridge, it's multi layered and more complicated than that, but surely schools have to engage initially too?

This isn't a subject I am well versed in at all, so I'm just making observations. Unless I knew exactly and specifically for my school what interactions or not had taken place, that would be hard. I too initially thought our school was pretty useless, but perhaps less so now, reading a lot of the HE stuff on here.

I've just cross posted.

abilockhart it certainly wasn't intended to be at all snide. I commented that quads were superficial and that those who let quads stop an application might be superficial too - not looking beyond the quads I meant - and you replied that you were that 'superficial' 18 yr old who didn't consider applying to Oxford. I then said that in that case you weren't superficial at all - you got past the even grander and more imposing architecture of Cambridge. The whole conversation of the thread had moved to quads and you replied to the quad related comment in language (I was that 'superficial' 18 yr old) suggesting strongly that the quads (or what they represent) in Oxford deterred an application. So not snide at all.

user1499173618 I completely agree, from my own (moderate) experience of Ho6 and potential Ho6 that there's a pervasive narrow mindedness which Oxbridge needs to shift if they possibly can. (I absolutely am not referring to our own Ho6 in this for those who know our school - our own Ho6 is exceptional in the job).

Replying to various things in the order in which they appeared -

Because of how Oxbridge is presented in the media, because of how social status is reinforced in the uk.

At least you're not blaming Oxbridge for that! But you're kind of saying that it's a problem that can't be solved, at least not within a generation.

hated the culture and met a lot of over confident, arrogant people who knew just how smart they were.

As people have already said, don't compare your insides with other people's outsides. Most people are wondering if they've got what it takes to be there, and are trying to prove themselves.

Is there any difference between the ratio of state school students admitted to courses which have a pre-test and those that don’t!
Ditto for Interview.

I think every Oxbridge course interviews.

As for the pre test question - you might have to make your own lists of courses with and without pretesting, but it's all there in both universities' admission stats.

Is there actual evidence that the A students who make it to Oxbridge are actually brighter / more academically successful than the rejected ones with the same grades who end up in other good Universities?*

How on earth would this evidence be gathered?

she did find continual denial of privilege incredibly frustrating. She is white, her mum is a teacher who cares deeply about her education, she grew up going on holidays (including abroad!) and to theatres/galleries/museums, she went to an ofsted outstanding school. She acknowledges all these privileges and finds it ludicrous and frustrating that kids with way more than that are often unwilling to...

Sadly this is not an attitude solely restricted to upper/upper middle class students. Has she ever met any men?

Tbh I think she was possibly being a bit too optimistic expecting every 18 year old she met to have that level of self- and societal awareness.

I believe Oxbridge when they say they want to address diversity (of all backgrounds), I just don’t think they know how to do it. Because the people who could help are not amongst them.

They definitely want to improve things. (Well, definitely for Oxford, I admit I'm assuming for Cambridge.) And yes, I do think you have a point. They've been trying for years (decades) and there has been slow improvement, but until that vicious circle is broken, improvement is unlikely to be any faster than glacial.

Or the lamentably low entry stats of Students of Black / African /Caribbean background . And reputed low application, despite, again, seeing several on our Open Days.

The stats are very exposing, and none of it is ever explained as anything other than being some factor within the student rather than the College or University.

Why say "reputed"? Sounds like you're doubting that there are low application rates from some subgroups. But as you say, the stats are very exposing and do show this.

So, what's the solution?

I've been reading this type of thread for 5 or 6 years. A lot of attacking, a lot of defending. What I haven't read is much in the way of concrete action that could be taken to improve the situation. Surely the Mumsnet hivemind has suggestions?

Picking out of this thread -
Visit more schools? (From 2Boys) They all have their linked areas, but some colleges may be more or less active than others, so increase levels of engagement and improve consistency?

Not sure there are any others tbh, unless it's to somehow stop 18 year olds being loudmouth dicks

Other things I've thought of -
Improve transparency re application process (flipside is perhaps that you make it easier to prepare for, which gives an advantage to those who have more preparation anyway?)
Increase engagement e.g. on The Student Room (I know there is some official engagement, but it doesn't seem to be consistent across all colleges), here perhaps, anywhere else relevant
Get someone like David Lammy who has spent years attacking Oxford for not being transparent about their possible biases, to now show his support for their effort to improve under representation?

2Boys you don't get 'an invite'!