DS major fail... wwyd? Totally pissed off

[Troublesometuesday]

In brief .....

DS was at RG London uni doing an engineering course.

In June, he told us he’d failed his degree. And whilst we we were shocked and disappointed, tried to figure out how best to support him.
Now, we finally know the truth of the situation, which is pretty shocking tbh...

-Failed a second year exam

• had four warnings about non-attendance at tutorials/practicals

-transferred onto ordinary degree at end of Yr2

We knew NONE of this!!!

Then, he failed two exams in final year and also failed his dissertation.

Now, whilst most of you will say, what an idiot.... my anger/fury/disappointment is not only directed at him, but also the fact that by treating students as adults, there is no way to intervene at all until it is too late.

To get a degree, DS has to go into 2nd year at another uni. So, never mind the fact that we have supported him fully for the past 3 years, he would get some funding for the coming year, but none at all for what would be the 5th year if a 3yr course....

Btw, at school he was a bright and able student who got 3 A’s - so, if ever there is a warning to other parents, this is it. They can lie, squander money, lie, don’t work, lie some more and fail then miserably.

I just don’t know what to do - of course I want him to achieve in life, but I am so hurt and can’t trust him any more.

Afraid I haven't read the full thread but it sounds a bit like what happened to me - I was always bright at school and A levels (got the best results in my school, never really had to try that hard), went to uni and discovered partying, drinking, boys... (never did drugs) I attended every lecture but didn't do my work outside lectures. I scraped through with a third which was such a relief - I was convinced I'd failed and I was too scared to tell my parents. I've found the world of work suits me much better and had a great job in the city before kids. So I'm sure your boy still has a great future ahead of him. All the best.

I'm not saying that people from the poorest families face no aspirational barriers in going to university, I am saying that of those that do choose to go, it's perfectly possible.

This is in response to posters saying that parents have to financially support their offspring when it's clear from what I and others have said that, whilst helpful to the young adult, it is not in fact essential in many cases.

I definitely took my studies more seriously than those who were handed everything on a plate!

As I thought - projection.

The LEO data (and I suspect the DELHE figures as well), show that the best indicator of the salary a UK graduate will achieve is the salary of her/his parents. It's a pretty scary indication of the entrenchment of privilege & affluence in the UK.

And further supprt to the Sutton Trust understanding that educational advantage maps on to socio-economic advantage from the age of about 3.

Which always makes me cross when I see affluent privileged young people (such as the OP's DS, I assume) pissing away their privilege & advantage. They should be working harder to make a contribution back to the society that his given them such advantages on a plate. I despair at the attitude of some of my students.

Silver - ‘affluent privileged young people pissing away their privilege and advatage’ Harsh words and not nice to hear, but unfortunately in my DS’s case, true. I am crushed by his lack of respect for us as parents. It’s been a whole game-changer in our relationship with him.

I think you really need to go back to basics : why didn't he tell you?

You can't help him until there is open and honest communication. Maybe family therapy would help?

But until this can be fixed then I think you need to step back and let him sort his issues out.
And if you were giving him £8000 a year then you weren't really helping him stand on his own feet.

Bekabeech - to be clear, we paid his accommodation which was just over £7000 and he used the loan for living expenses.

Even in London he could get accommodation less than £7000 a year.

This happened to my cousin. Did well all through school, chose a challenging course at uni but clearly couldn't cope. He didn't tell his parents the whole story until eventually he had to. It took him a few years, but he ended up doing a degree he was happy with and is now a teacher.

I do agree with your frustrations about treating university students as adults, 18,19, 20 year olds still need the guidance of their parents, particularly when things get tough.

He clearly wanted to go to uni for the experience of being a student rather then to study something he was fascinated by, which is 100% the wrong motivation to go. Let him work and find his own way forward. The motivation and interest to learn and develop has to come from him.

A big part of being an adult is recognizing when you need help and knowing how to advocate for yourself and find resources. We all know the uni would've had various systems in place to help struggling students. OP do you have the full story now? To be fair to the uni they may very well have been reaching out to him in myriad ways. For example, he moved out of honours, was that just something that was automatically triggered with low grades or was there a process with a number of meetings with a Personal Tutor that included a paper trail?

Agree with all the PPs who say to stop funding him if he goes back for another try. There is a silver lining though; this is that this is almost exactly my story too. I failed my first year, effectively got kicked out and didn't tell my parents who were partially funding my degree.

Coming clean and returning home with my tail between my legs was a humbling experience that taught me the importance of hard work and independence. If it hadn't happened I (a) wouldn't have the lovely first class degree I went back and got later and (b) would probably still be the same arrogant, entitled little shit I was at 19.

I do agree with your frustrations about treating university students as adults, 18,19, 20 year olds still need the guidance of their parents, particularly when things get tough.

Yes but they need to take the first step as an adult and ask for help.

It is not the universities fault. If you are paying towards your child's university and you want to be sure you are not pissing the money away insist on seeing a transcript of their results every term/ semester. Thry can usually log in and see them and can just send you a screen shot or just show you.. You will notice as soon as they fail a module or uniy. Failure to share their results means no money. Easy. If they are doing well they won't mind you seeing their results. Alternatively you can pay for them and decide it is a gift and if they choose to squander it as an adult then that is life. Either way don't expect the universites to be your go between.

Universities are bound by data protection rules and cannot divulge personal information (like exam results) to anyone else.

Would you have been annoyed with him if he said he wanted to drop out?

Trigger warning.

One of my family members is in a position at a University in which one of his duties has been to inform some poor and utterly astonished parents that their DC was found dead, having taken their own life on graduation day, as he had not been able to tell them he was not actually graduating and hadn’t shown at uni for most of the 3-4 years of his course. He had no friends and had disappeared from the radar early on. This was about 4 years ago.

I don’t wish to freak anyone out, but just want parents and staff to be aware of the lengths some young people will go not come clean and what an awful mess they can get themselves into. Apart from the obvious people who suffer the consequences, my family member has been very distressed as well.

That's a salutary tale Au79.

My youngest's first year at uni hasn't gone to plan and he's facing resits or possibly redoing the year. It's incredibly difficult to find the right balance in my approach and it annoys me when people take a simplistic view on posts like this - tell them there's no more money, make them leave/her a job etc.

I've been worrying all summer about the reason for this failure -
Too much partying?
Not enough work?
Course too hard?
Course not enjoyable?
Depression?

He will talk to me but I've had to rein in my questioning as he lied to me the other week about something his tutor had apparently said in an email to him. Turned out there was no such email and he'd basically just said it to get me off his back (my words not his). I really don't want to be in the OP's situation in a few years' time (and I'm hugely sympathetic to your predicament op) so I'm trying to keep the lines of communication open and not make him think I'm going to react (either emotionally or by cutting off financial support) in a way which will close down that communication.

I'm worried about depression and lack of self-confidence so I'm treading carefully. Though advice from some IRL is that I should come down hard on him.

It's really difficult getting the balance right.

I've always told my dcs that nothing is set in stone. If they don't like the course, the setting, the people or just changed their mind, that is fine. If they get themselves in a pickle with money or anything else it's fine. We can help. It doesn't mean that we bail them out but it means that we can advise and support.

They are still growing and learning. They are going to make mistakes. I think it's important to let them know that we recognise that.

I think you are doing the right thing op in stepping back. He needs to face full on what happened and sort it out for himself.

Everything that Topseyt said.

I think on some level he probably didn't want you do anything/everything to help him.

I was in a similar situation at VI form. I didn't want to be there, hated the place, stopped attending except once in a blue moon and did disastrously i my A Levels. I had had enough of education, I was not intending to go to uni and to my utter horror my parents then 'forced' me to learn to drive. So I was crap at that too.

My mother did an awful lot of talking to me but was not interested in my views/interests.

This was also the start of my long fight with depression.

Sorry to be harsh OP but you sound a lot like my mother, you are talking about your disappointment, you not trusting him, about him haring to go to a different uni etc etc.

He may not want to continue with a degree, he may want to get a job, go travelling, do a completely different course.

He is an adult, he has, for whatever reason, failed his degree (and I'm also puzzled as to him doing a dissertation for an ordinary degree) it is up to him what happens next.

Oh and he may be able to leave with a uni certificate or diploma, so he should come out with some form of qualification.

I began work for the NHS, had a fantastic career that was ended by ill health and went to uni in my 30s.

I want to say that universities don't expect parents to pay for their children, universities ask students for £9k p.a which every person can get a loan for (providing its their first degree).

The government, separate from the uni, gives students a loan to cover their living expenses and they expect that parents will contribute. It is completely separate from the uni. You aren't paying for your child to go to uni, its not boarding school you are paying for them to live away from home in order to attend the uni. How you and your child chose to pay for their living costs is entirely up to you. My parents paid nothing and I got a job in the holidays which topped me up approx. £2k. None of that went to the uni and the uni didn't ask for it.

I failed my first year and second year exams op (passed resits). I was a high achiever at school, I suddenly didn't really know how to do well anymore when before it had always been easy. It wasn't that I couldn't do it, I just didn't know how and I was just so anxious of falling that I couldn't even face trying. I also came from a small town with v. Close family, bf and lots of close friends who didn't go to uni. I had barely been alone my entire life and suddenly I was alone, with people I didn't know. I was so anxious all the time I badly slept or ate and I just really wasn't well in those two years. In hindsight I just really wasn't ready for uni, I shouldn't have gone straight from school because I wasn't ready for the transition to independence.

My parents were wonderful, when I told them id failed they basically said "its your degree, it's up to you if you fail. We will give you help if you ask but we're not picking up the pieces when it all goes wrong" this helped a lot with my fear of failure and essentially helped me to grow up and take responsibility for my own life and my education, because it was my degree and I wasn't a child anymore. They were always checking in etc but also left me to it. It took me a while to get my arse in gear but I have now graduated and have a good job!

Anyone who goes to uni is an adult, it's entirely their degree and their choice. When people go to uni, despite being the magic MN 18 they aren't always ready for it, but the onus is on them and their family to recognise this not the uni. Uni is about education, its not an extension of school. The university should always deal with its students and not their parents, that attitude it potentially what leads to failure as you do need be to be an adult really who can cope on their own to do well. If you are doing it to please your parents you don't get very far.

Lots of students struggle with the transition to independent study. School is very much "do this and get an a" there are clear instructions, basically everyone just tells you what to do and how to behave.

Uni is very independent, it's up to you how you use their resources and learn etc. No one tells you what to do. I think it's important parents aren't involved because that takes it back to school. Its important they are treated like adults because they are and they are learning a degree for them. I personally wish my parents had treated me as an adult earlier.

I think it's important parents aren't involved because that takes it back to school

Plus, I don't want to be on the phone with parents for half my day - academics are busy enough as it is dealing with students complaining that courses are too hard, at the wrong times, 'not relevant', or otherwise 'unfair'

Parents are more involved in university education than ever before, obviously due to the financial support they frequently provide. From a uni staff member perspective, this isn't always a good thing - parents frequently phoning demanding to know why their son/daughter has failed, why their work can't be marked again etc etc. Such pressure on the young adults.
Feedback from large graduate employers too is that because parents are more involved in uni life and generally more now is done at unis than ever before to support students and get them through courses, is that by time they graduate they're frequently not workforce ready....

If my DS has told me he had made a mistake in degree choice or even that he was struggling when he got his first email attendance warning, I feel I’d have been in a position to discuss it with him and help make a choice about how to move on. A close friend of his took his own life at the end of first year, so his well-being has always been a priority.
The fact he chose to act like all was going ok, when really all he did was stick his head in the sand, meant any chance to intervene was lost.
He was awarded an HND, so whilst not ideal, is something he can use when he decides what next.