DS major fail... wwyd? Totally pissed off

[Troublesometuesday]

In brief .....

DS was at RG London uni doing an engineering course.

In June, he told us he’d failed his degree. And whilst we we were shocked and disappointed, tried to figure out how best to support him.
Now, we finally know the truth of the situation, which is pretty shocking tbh...

-Failed a second year exam

• had four warnings about non-attendance at tutorials/practicals

-transferred onto ordinary degree at end of Yr2

We knew NONE of this!!!

Then, he failed two exams in final year and also failed his dissertation.

Now, whilst most of you will say, what an idiot.... my anger/fury/disappointment is not only directed at him, but also the fact that by treating students as adults, there is no way to intervene at all until it is too late.

To get a degree, DS has to go into 2nd year at another uni. So, never mind the fact that we have supported him fully for the past 3 years, he would get some funding for the coming year, but none at all for what would be the 5th year if a 3yr course....

Btw, at school he was a bright and able student who got 3 A’s - so, if ever there is a warning to other parents, this is it. They can lie, squander money, lie, don’t work, lie some more and fail then miserably.

I just don’t know what to do - of course I want him to achieve in life, but I am so hurt and can’t trust him any more.

then they [parents] deserve to be told if their child is failing

No way. A university student may be your child, but they are legally not children; they are adults.

And no way am I going to spend my already totally overcommitted time intervening in dysfunctional relationships between parents & children.

My relationship with my students is one of trust & mutual respect. I am not their teacher: I am a lecturer & tutor. I do not discipline them, nor do I report to their parents. No-one is forcing anyone to attend university, therefore the school-style discipline you envisage, and the former school relationship between teacher and parent does not apply.

No-one is forcing anyone to attend university, therefore the school-style discipline you envisage, and the former school relationship between teacher and parent does not apply

This is a good point. Uni is completely voluntary, it's a choice, it's not school.

but she also tried not to discuss it as she had never really experienced failure academically before and really didn't know how to handle it

This is key. Talented, high-achieving young people (more usually young women) who have never failed. Who assume they will always succeed.

For affluent young people (particularly those in fee-paying schools) the way the system is set up so that they don't fail can sometimes be invisible. They think it's only because they're working hard. But there are a lot of other things that contribute to holding pupils so they don't fail.

And when they don't succeed as well as they think they should, or actually fail they really really don't know how to cope, and often lack resilience. Most of them learn to become resilient, and are brilliant at rising to the challenges we set them.

But there are the anxious, the entitled, spoiled (and sometimes all 3 in one student) who try to tell me that the mark I've given them for their work is "unfair" because they "put SO much effort in, and the mark doesn't reflect that."

You can tell the difference with young people who've been to a "sink" school or who have had a more rocky school career. They are better at rolling with the punches.

We need to find a way to allow pupils to fail, and learn from failing. To be brave & take risks, and fail.
As Samuel Beckett said: "Fail again. Fail better." (not bad advice from a Nobel Laureate!)

They will do better in life in the long run.

Couldn't agree w your last post more @RiceandBeans as a parent and a teacher.

If universities have an obligation to inform parents because they were paying, how are we supposed to keep track of which students receive aid from their parents, which work the night shift at the local nursing home, and which are reliant on an inheritance from a long-dead relative who cannot be contacted by reason of being dead?
Also of which use a carrier bag to take their books around in (why is this a shitty thing?) and which get something more elegant funded.

We'd never have time to think about our lectures, would we?

My DS dropped out after his second year of a science degree. All the modules were capped. He couldn't get a single module that he wanted to do as there were simply too many students.
He wanted to do a particular dissertation and his professor told him it would to time consuming to supervise.
Universities are businesses and making money is the first priority.
We did contribute living costs because the student loan doesn't cover those.
DS came home and got a job.
He is still paying back the loan.

Oh for crying out loud. Not everyone's parents fund 3 or 4 years of university. Many don't, the 'children' self-fund, and in many cases take their studies a lot more seriously because of it....

the 'children' self-fund, and in many cases take their studies a lot more seriously because of it....

And your evidence for this claim is...?

Going somewhat off topic- @Bluntness100, 73% of students receive money from parents and & 76% have a part time job.

That is most in my book.

Could you link to the research that shows that?

Maybe DD shouldn't be thinking of going to university because her health issues prevent her from being able to get a job and devote enough time to study?

And no-one should go to Oxbridge universities either?

SuburbanRhonda - my partner has worked for a major university for more than 10 years. I guarantee you not all students have parents paying their way, and it often (not always) gives that bit more motivation if it's their own money being used.

confused

Anecdotes aren’t evidence.

In any case I meant where is your evidence that students who fund themselves take their studies more seriously. Sounds more like projection.

Some students just don’t have the time to work if their courses are full on. My DDs never knew a single student who worked! They were all trying for internships and plenty worked in the holidays though. It’s not the norm to get nothing from parents. Most DC who go to university are middle class and most parents give something toward the cost. All the research shows the poorest families don’t have children at university. Plenty of halls cost more than the minimum loan so most parents top up. Far DC get the maximum loans. Who gets £11,000 plus? That’s not a figure I recognise.

Suburban Rhonda - I said 'many', certainly not a blanket generalisation. And of course it's an anecdotal observation; it's hardly something that's measured through formal university metrics?! Stands to reason though, does it not? Was true in my day as well when student loans and tuition fees were still relatively new. I had to work full time during holidays and part-time during term time, plus take out loans, to cover my costs. I definitely took my studies more seriously than those who were handed everything on a plate!

Lynette 'receive money from parents' is very broad. It could be any thing from £500 a term for the first year to the full £24,000 plus that OP has shelled out.

My ds's flatmates receive very little from their parents. They all have jobs and overdrafts. They are all happily living the poor student lifestyle and still managing to have fun and keep on top of their courses.

Bubblesbuddy whilst I agree that the absolute poorest in society struggle to achieve the education** necessary to attend university, it's not true that all students are from middle class families. So, so many are from working class backgrounds. This I can prove!

Don't know where those ** came from!

All the research shows the poorest families don’t have children at university.

DS's gf is from one of those poorest families. She, like him, got a job before going to university and saved up. She took out the full loans and got a job in her uni town. She is now going into her second year, has found a house to share and a way out of her disadvantaged background.

She has a house, a job and a university course that she loves and is doing well on. She would never have been able to move out of home and become independent without this opportunity so it can work really well for some of the poorest families.

My DH failed his first attempt at a degree (too many drugs, too much larking about and not enough work) he admits he was immature and selfish. He finished his degree at a different university after taking some time out (to grow up).
Easier then though as not such huge financial liabilities attached.

I work in a uni and there is a breathtaking amount of lying amongst students to their parents. But universities can't get parents involved in the conversation, it's just not practical (and as most people have said, they are adults).

I've been at graduation ceremonies where a student who failed has begged us to let him cross the stage as he hadn't told his dad he'd failed.

And although they are adults they should have access to HUGE amounts of support. So it's not the same as a job. Universities have a vested interest in their students succeeding. But there are many bright young people who are too immature or cocky to take the advice and support offered.

Fairenuff I suspect that your DS's girlfriend is not the norm. Generally the poorest families have poverty of aspiration as well as financial poverty. They usually don't have the role models to encourage them.

A friend of mine works in a large 6th form college in our nearest town that is not known for its affluence. The LA is near the bottom of the league tables for education. The most able 16 year olds don't go to this 6th form college. They go to 6th form at DD's school or the outstanding 6th form college in another town 14 miles away. As the result the less academic students stay in the local town and most of them don't go to university.

Generally the poorest families have poverty of aspiration as well as financial poverty. They usually don't have the role models to encourage them

Actually, whereas I agree that it is easier for those from middle and upper classes to access HE the 'poverty of aspiration' model is widely critiqued. See the example below.

This is not to say that one or the other view is right, but it does highlight that the issue is not clear-cut.

dspace.stir.ac.uk/handle/1893/26654#.W3Fd9YU7plY

According to UCAS being poor is still a barrier for many.

www.theguardian.com/education/2017/dec/14/poorest-school-leavers-half-as-likely-to-attend-university-as-their-peers

I do agree that the idea that an eighteen year old is an adult, capable of all the reasoning and decision making skills of a thirty year old, is now outdated. Research into brain development shows that the brain at eighteen is far from fully developed, and can lead to some pretty erratic behaviour.

Legally they are adults but don’t really have the equipment to match the responsibility. A friend of mine is involved with a movement called T2A (Transition to Adulthood) which is lobbying for an intermediate stage for the treatment of young people in the justice system to account for this stage of development.

As far as university is concerned I have long been against the current system of going straight from school to uni at 18. I think it is far better to spend a year or two in the real world first, and then make the decision whether a degree is the right thing or not.

I’m sorry to hear about your experiences OP. It is a huge waste of money and effort and I can imagine your frustration. It is retrievable though, and hopefully he will have learned a serious lesson. He will need quite a lot of stick, but some carrot too.